Introducing Delicious-Fruit.com!

[Derf]

I agree with it being changed to weekly and I'd also like to see smaller streamers being featured as well.

I'm not entirely sure where Moose's assertion that it's only upsetting smaller streamers who want to get big fast is coming from, or how they believe we should qualify being deserved of the feature, but I do take their point that big streamers also deserve recognition regardless of whether they're well known. It's important though to still factor that in to how this is approached, I understand that small streamers typically don't stream as much as more popular ones but this is part and parcel of the fact that a smaller fanbase makes it less viable to stream, of course you have to put the effort in but it's a mutual growth. Also this is just a feature, it's not forcing anyone to actually follow these people, it's just helping their exposure, if the individuals truly believe the person featured isn't deserving of their time they need only click off the stream and continue with their day. Not only that but Moose, you seem to think that time devoted is an essential quality someone must reach a certain threshold in in order to be deserving of advertisement but that's just not the way it works. If someone has the charisma and skill and viewer interaction to warrant a large following when they've only been doing it for a month, then it's not about giving them a random boost or letting them get big fast, it's about giving them exposure and letting the people who will appreciate them find them.

But like I said earlier in this post, I do think that big streamers deserve recognition as well, even moreso. Perhaps a good compromise would be to keep the written bio feature as is just for wannabes (though I still think a weekly swap would be cool) but have a daily/weekly updated tickertape/small box underneath saying something like "Looking for something new? Check out: XXXXXXX" and that features the smaller streamers. I'm not necessarily sure how the vetting process for selecting them would go but I do think it would be nice to have a little link to newcomers as well.


Onto a separate suggestion. The main reason I don't use the site honestly is because of the lack of any real discussion interface. I like the site for the most part but I feel as though a stream of one-off reviews is limiting. I'm not suggesting any massive overhaul but it would be nice if there was a tab under every game where people could discuss them like a kind of mini forum thread. I'm not sure whether I think it should be integrated into reviews as I don't think people should have to defend their opinions and it might just lead to harassment. I think it's useful because only a fraction of the games on the website have a forum analogue and it would be useful to be able to ask questions and discuss every game because some Japanese games might have text that doesn't display on computers with English as the default and instead of these games getting downvoted or ignored by the western community, people could post how to progress. For instance one fangame a while back, I forget the name, had a puzzle where you had to type numbers into a computer, only the text was messed up and the English was badly translated so I had to find a youtube video so I knew what to do as I thought you had to multiply or add the numbers etc. I spoke to Piece about it a while back and he said he'd suggested something similar as well.

[Derf]

That's not what I meant.

While it's a nice sentiment and one I wish I could agree with, it's unrealistic to act like the amount of people viewing you shouldn't affect how you much you stream. The truth is streaming to no one is no fun, and with small fanbases there can be times when no one is around so there's no point in streaming. I'm not saying that people are only streaming to get viewers, but I am saying that with more viewers there is more demand and incentive to stream more often. Viewers give the streamer encouragement in their hobby and create a mutual benefit. Not only that but I hardly think its fair to define viewer interaction as something which makes you deserving of a place in the spotlight and then say that actually amount of viewers doesn't matter and act like smaller streamers shouldn't be allowed access to a method of advertisement. I'm an advocate of people doing things they enjoy for themselves and not for other people or posterity, but when the action itself is as inherently communal as streaming it's farcical to act like there isn't a mutual growth and/or relationship.

TJ pointed out that "a randomly selected actively-streaming Wannabe" will be chosen, which people seemed to ignore. No one never said that small streamers can't be picked.

That's quite right, but you did imply that small streamers shouldn't be picked over larger ones and you generalised them and their wishes which is what I was ultimately responding to.

[JGBMaster]

I honestly would've never thought someone would say big streamers deserve to be more advertised than small ones just because they're more active and have more viewers. I think this is made to make new people know us, to meet new streamers from our Twitch group that we haven't met yet and to give recognition to people who deserve more viewers/being a bit more known. I'm not saying big streamers don't deserve that, but what is the purpose of giving them more recognition than small streamers when like 99% of our community already knows them? Let's just make things equal. And if some streamers don't stream for weeks or even months, just don't advertise them.

I think this feature is meant to give recognition to the streamers who really deserve it, rather than just boosting random small streamers.

So you're basically saying that the not-so-famous streamers from our Twitch group are random small streamers who don't deserve to be as much advertised as the big streamers? The main reason why streamers are added to our Twitch group is to make them have a larger audience and being more known in our community, so why would you give them less importance with this feature?

I got that impression from previous posts and them trying to change the system so they would have higher chance of being chosen. Maybe that's just my imagination.

You say it as if small streamers were about to take the power or something. Even if small streamers are advertised, it doesn't mean people are gonna stop watching the big streamers just because there's a streamer being advertised. If people don't like the content or just want more stream quality they'll just watch the big streamers because they have more cool things on their stream, because their bitrate is better or because they're just more enjoyable to watch. This won't affect big streamers, they will still keep growing and growing a lot more than the other channels, if that's what bothers you.

If someone wants to talk in my chat that is fine and I will talk back, but I don't care if no one wants to talk and my chat is dead.

I agree with that, we don't need viewers or chat activity to be streaming. If small streamers streamed just for the views and followers they would have already given up on streaming because fangames aren't that popular compared to the most played games on Twitch. If they keep streaming is because they have fun, not because of their viewers. But it's always nice to be hosted by other streamers and see that your audience grows, right?

[OhNoezEinPandy]

I like the idea of posting frequent news being posted on delfruit. Makes the site a bit more lively. 

[Wolsk]

I like and support the new feature and agree that the "Wannabe of the Month" should be changed to be weekly.

[Aelya]

looks like another domination tool to be used by the oppressive fangame regime

[CasualCrap]

i think its a cool feature and weekly would be nice to spice stuff up buti think that people are getting there titties tangled in obscure positions over tj and klazen doing a nice thing by adverting anyone it isnt obligated to advertise someone big nor small and so what if they advertise someone big same applies to them advertising someone small it honestly doesnt matter. if someone cares about something like this then it most likely means they care about not being as big which is a shame their are plenty of good players who dont get many views and it shouldnt matter at all who gets featured just appreciate that the feature exists
 
yours truly, The Oppressive Fangame Regime

[Derf]

oppressive fangame regime

i think that people are getting there titties tangled in obscure positions [...] yours truly, The Oppressive Fangame Regime

Top kek. Stay edgy guys :~~)

But seriously, people were just suggesting it would be nice to give fair coverage to both kinds of streamers. I'm not sure why you and others are opposing this so much and repeatedly trying to assert the strawman that it's because the smaller streamers only care about viewers or that they want to get big quick. It's a fair, nice way to bring the community together. No one's stated that it's only going to be "big streamers", Klazen said the opposite, people were just saying that they hoped it would be a fair slice across the board of people big and small. No need to break out the sarcastic edgelord routine.

[CasualCrap]

it is a nice feature thats exactly what i said i also said its "most likely" never said it was a thing im not opposing anything i just think its a little too early in the process for people to even think that small streamers werent gonna get featured anyways the whole big and small streamers meme didnt even have to be brought up

[Aelya]

i don't post much, but when i do it's utterly useless content just to add fuel :o

(click to show/hide)

i have my doubts regarding how effective this feature can even be, though it can't hurt to try it out. that said, given the proportions, a pretty big argument is being made out of this (like it's a big deal - it's not) and over pretty much nothing (we have no idea on whether they already even have anyone in mind for the next picks. it's clear that small streamers are not out of the question, i'm fairly sure they will consider streamer suggestions)
it's entertaining to follow :o

[tehjman1993]

Woah, woah! Lots of replies for a feature we didn't think would be that controversial! I see lots of different opinions, mostly positive. We're glad the community has taken a liking to the change we are adding to our review site. I want to outline a few things that both Klazen and I have agreed upon, and that we believe gives the community the most transparency and insight into our decision making. I will try to address everyone's concerns/issues raised one-by-one. Here we go!

1.) We are a community site. Yes, we boast reviews and ratings as the flagship for delicious-fruit. Yes, we moderate these reviews and ratings with the utmost transparency, announcing every policy change on both these forums and on del-fruit itself. However, we are dedicated to the community and encourage it to grow and flourish. To achieve this, we sometimes add new features that we believe benefit the community. As we have added many features to the reviews/ratings section, we wanted to try something a little different. Do not think of Delicious-Fruit as a "review only" site. We want it to be a site that you not only check for reviews, but a site you check for community happenings. We believe "Wannabe of the Month" is a great start.

2.) This is not a "big-streamer" only event. We are looking for the best representations of the Wannabes in every stream. We do not look at view counts. Nor follower count. Nor social media followers/subscribers. We don't care if you're a Twitch Partner. We don't worry about webcams, on-screen chat, or even correct 4:3 scaling (but you really should Kappa). We are looking for community members that are great representatives of the community that are also active on Twitch.tv. This is not to say that everyone who doesn't stream on Twitch isn't a good representation, rather, we are looking to highlight those that we believe exemplify what the community should strive towards. Sunbla was chosen out of a pool of active streamers that we wanted to highlight. We have a nice list of streamers that could've taken the spotlight just as randomly as Sunbla. I encourage all of you to congratulate Sunbla on being the 1st "Wannabe of the Month", and help anyone who may be new to his channel integrate themselves into the community. He is, hopefully, just one of many Wannabes you watch!

3.) Regarding weekly switching rather than monthly - I personally do not like the weekly idea. My dislike is two-fold: I do not believe a week is long enough for a "majority" of site visitors to see, and I believe we will have to "recycle" Wannabes at a much quicker pace if we do a weekly switch, rather than monthly. There are only so many active streamers before we would either have to choose an inactive streamer (no-no), or one that has already been chosen (not as exciting). Also, based on how many unique daily visitors we have to the site, I believe it is more beneficial to keep the streamer up for a month rather than a week. Although I can't pinpoint the actual amount of non-bot visitors to the site, based on what I can read, we have roughly the same group of people checking del-fruit on a daily (or near-daily) basis, while it takes a longer time for more uniques to check within a week, two week, or month period. That being said, I think a week is too short and a month is just about the right time. In fact, I believe a 3-week period is probably ideal, however, this is a very ugly time frame to use, so we use a month instead.
TL;DR: Math fun

4.) Stream content - We don't care if you love needles. Avoidances. Adventure. Some weird medley mix. We don't care what you're streaming. We're not prioritizing speedrunners over avoidance players. We're not prioritizing medleys over needle. This plays mostly back to point #1.

5.) We do appreciate your feedback. When Klazen/myself read these posts, we do take it seriously. We discuss every point, bit by bit. We are willing to change things if the community has an overwhelming opinion towards a change that we can agree with to some extent. All in all, we want to help the community. Although I am speaking on behalf of Klazen, I can honestly say that we have tried very hard to keep activity and involvement high in the community, ranging from FGM to Bingo to all of Klazen's meme sites to Del-Fruit itself, and more. We are always looking for something new and fresh to do, and so the "Wannabe of the Month" is our newest addition! If you ever have a suggestion for Del-Fruit (whether it is review-related or not!) please let us know! We already have a few future ideas in mind that we intend on implementing at some point, and we'll make sure everyone stays updated so you never miss a beat.

Thank you for supporting Del-Fruit, and we hope we can continue to create new, fun, and innovative ways to show off our community!
-TJ&Klazen

[bananaguy12]

If you do this, you should at some point feature all the wannabes. Be fair to all of them.

[Derf]

Onto a separate suggestion. The main reason I don't use the site honestly is because of the lack of any real discussion interface. I like the site for the most part but I feel as though a stream of one-off reviews is limiting. I'm not suggesting any massive overhaul but it would be nice if there was a tab under every game where people could discuss them like a kind of mini forum thread. I'm not sure whether I think it should be integrated into reviews as I don't think people should have to defend their opinions and it might just lead to harassment. I think it's useful because only a fraction of the games on the website have a forum analogue and it would be useful to be able to ask questions and discuss every game because some Japanese games might have text that doesn't display on computers with English as the default and instead of these games getting downvoted or ignored by the western community, people could post how to progress. For instance one fangame a while back, I forget the name, had a puzzle where you had to type numbers into a computer, only the text was messed up and the English was badly translated so I had to find a youtube video so I knew what to do as I thought you had to multiply or add the numbers etc. I spoke to Piece about it a while back and he said he'd suggested something similar as well.

[tehjman1993]

If you do this, you should at some point feature all the wannabes. Be fair to all of them.

We are planning on selecting new Wannabes every month that are active streamers on twitch.tv.

Onto a separate suggestion. The main reason I don't use the site honestly is because of the lack of any real discussion interface. I like the site for the most part but I feel as though a stream of one-off reviews is limiting. I'm not suggesting any massive overhaul but it would be nice if there was a tab under every game where people could discuss them like a kind of mini forum thread. I'm not sure whether I think it should be integrated into reviews as I don't think people should have to defend their opinions and it might just lead to harassment. I think it's useful because only a fraction of the games on the website have a forum analogue and it would be useful to be able to ask questions and discuss every game because some Japanese games might have text that doesn't display on computers with English as the default and instead of these games getting downvoted or ignored by the western community, people could post how to progress. For instance one fangame a while back, I forget the name, had a puzzle where you had to type numbers into a computer, only the text was messed up and the English was badly translated so I had to find a youtube video so I knew what to do as I thought you had to multiply or add the numbers etc. I spoke to Piece about it a while back and he said he'd suggested something similar as well.

While I don't think the re-quote of your own text was necessary, a discussion tab for each game will be considered. Del-Fruit, among other things, has no real way to communicate to a wide audience instantly. A discussion tab for each game would solve this issue, however, I can already see it being abused far more than just the reviews themselves. This would also have to be heavily moderated, which is something we would like to avoid. We would rather have a self-sufficient system in which the community can regulate itself. A discussion panel, unfortunately, would probably have to be moderated because of certain comments made towards the game, the creator, or other community members. We have a strict policy against disparaging comments towards any of the 3 parties listed, and we would have to apply this to the discussion panel, which undermines the point of a 'discussion' entirely.

In addition, a discussion panel acts as a mini-forum for the game. Although we wish for Del-Fruit to be successful in a variety of ways, we do not want it to be a place for discussion. This is what a forum is for, and we would rather drive traffic to this site for discussion. Forum-like changes made to Del-Fruit could hurt these forums in the long run, which is something we also want to avoid. Let this site stand as a place for discussion and image sharing, while let Del-Fruit stand as a place for reviews, ratings, and other minor add-ins.

[Derf]

I assumed it was lost in the rubble the first time.

I'm not really sure I'm understanding of the goal you have for the site: You claim you want it to be more than a review site, and that discussion would allow better communication on the site, but then you go on to say that actually you don't want discussion on the site and that the site should remain about reviews and ratings.

Your claim that adding discussion to delicious fruit would drive traffic away from the forums is quite frankly unsubstantiated as most of the discussion here is about creating games & video discussion about people's achievements, neither of which would be the point of a discussion tab. I also don't see why people would just suddenly move over to delicious fruit if it did have similar features anyway: IWBTF does everything this place does and it doesn't steal traffic away - people are capable of using both at once. The main focus of the site would still be on tight concise reviews and statistics, and that would be what differentiates it from these forums.

The reason I think it's a good idea is because many games on delicious fruit have no screenshots, no reviews and are in Japanese. This makes it very hard for people to give them a go when many employ gimmicks that have no explanation if you don't speak Japanese. A discussion or a questions tab where someone can say "How do I get past the boss in stage 5?" and someone who knows the answer could help them would do wonders for the site; not only would a lot of the games gathering dust on there slowly start to accrue ratings as people could give them a fair go due to their newfound accessibility, but it would make the site a more welcoming environment for people of lower levels as they can seek advice on trickier fangames. It isn't just Japanese fangames, some western fangames have strange and esoteric mechanics that aren't explained as well. You might say this is what a walkthrough is for, or what a forum post is for, but being realistic there are so many fangames released that one off posts asking questions would clutter the forums and that people wouldn't want to create walkthroughs of just to show off how to do one small section; a concise discussion tab on delicious fruit would solve both of those problems and contain friendly help/advice in one small place. Again, this is not the same as what a forum thread would be for; I'm not suggesting the discussion tab would function as criticism either, because that's what the reviews are for.

As for moderation, if you just went with a simple FAQ or question answer format, you'd only need to confirm or deny answers/questions in the same way you do for download requests and screenshot uploads, which I honestly doubt would add that much extra to the workload. (Even if it did, I'm sure you could find someone who would be willing to help; I, for instance, would gladly help implement and smooth over such a feature as the lack of it is one of the reasons why I don't find the site very user-friendly).

Though I do understand and agree with your worries of abuse, I just don't see how moderating them would function any different to how you moderate reviews. There's a report button and most people are sensible enough not to need to use it. The only silly things I've seen on delicious fruit are people reviewing bad games as 10/10 which is honestly just a bit of playful fun that is obviously facetious, even to outsiders. I've not seen anything malicious - which granted not being a moderator there might make sense, and is probably testament to the good job you do. But I would say that a lot of your worries about this feature are overblown: drawing traffic away from the forums, diluting the function of the site, promoting abuse, etc - I just don't see any of these things having any realistic chance of happening if this feature is implemented correctly and with care, as I'm sure it would be.