Fangames > Gameplay & Discussion
Serious fangame making questions
patrickgh3:
Recently I have been doing some thinking about the various dynamics of making fangames in our community. Sometimes I get discouraged when I think about this stuff. I think this discouragement comes from neither me personally nor the community having clear answers to these questions. These are like murky waters in my mind I would like to try and clear up.
* How much appreciation and support (if any) do fangame creators deserve, and are they currently getting enough?
* Is it okay to heavily criticize people’s fangames that they made on their own time for everyone to enjoy?
* How much patience and forgiveness (if any) should fangame streamers and players be expected to have?
* What is the right balance of encouraging quality fangames while not scaring off potentially good creators?
* To what extent can you be proud of a fangame that heavily uses other people’s content? (spook jam, medleys, and in general using music+sprites+sounds made by others)
* Is it okay to use the self-made assets of other people’s fangames?
* To what extent (if any) are quality fangames not getting attention they deserve?
* To what extent (if any) are fangame creators limiting their creative growth as opposed to making freeware games for a bigger, more general audience?
I want to hear what everyone thinks about these kind of topics.
tehjman1993:
--- Quote from: patrickgh3 on November 25, 2016, 01:27:39 PM ---Recently I have been doing some thinking about the various dynamics of making fangames in our community. Sometimes I get discouraged when I think about this stuff. I think this discouragement comes from neither me personally nor the community having clear answers to these questions. These are like murky waters in my mind I would like to try and clear up.
* How much appreciation and support (if any) do fangame creators deserve, and are they currently getting enough?
* Is it okay to heavily criticize people’s fangames that they made on their own time for everyone to enjoy?
* How much patience and forgiveness (if any) should fangame streamers and players be expected to have?
* What is the right balance of encouraging quality fangames while not scaring off potentially good creators?
* To what extent can you be proud of a fangame that heavily uses other people’s content? (spook jam, medleys, and in general using music+sprites+sounds made by others)
* Is it okay to use the self-made assets of other people’s fangames?
* To what extent (if any) are quality fangames not getting attention they deserve?
* To what extent (if any) are fangame creators limiting their creative growth as opposed to making freeware games for a bigger, more general audience?
I want to hear what everyone thinks about these kind of topics.
--- End quote ---
My 2cents on these questions:
* How much appreciation and support (if any) do fangame creators deserve, and are they currently getting enough?
I do not like using the word 'deserve' for this question, since this implies a sense of entitlement. Appreciation and support is never owed, it is given. That being said, I think this varies from player to player and what they feel is the right amount of praise and support. Everyone has different ways of expressing their own.
* Is it okay to heavily criticize people’s fangames that they made on their own time for everyone to enjoy?
Yes - criticism is not necessarily negative, and can be used as a talking point instead. The ultimate goal is to better the fangame creator. Any other form of criticism meant to demean, insult, or otherwise not help a creator is not good criticism, nor would I define it as such.
* How much patience and forgiveness (if any) should fangame streamers and players be expected to have?
Varies from player to player - expectation should be 0 patience and 0 forgiveness. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
* What is the right balance of encouraging quality fangames while not scaring off potentially good creators?
As stated above, healthy criticism through talking points and brainstorming is the best way to encourage higher-quality fangames.
* To what extent can you be proud of a fangame that heavily uses other people’s content? (spook jam, medleys, and in general using music+sprites+sounds made by others)
This is a question left to the creator. You can be as proud as you want, regardless of what others think.
* Is it okay to use the self-made assets of other people’s fangames?
As long as credit is given where it is due. This is one of the main themes of fangames.
* To what extent (if any) are quality fangames not getting attention they deserve?
Again, 'deserve' is a loaded word and implies entitlement. If you believe your game is "good" but is getting 0 attention, you may want to take a second look at your fangame.
* To what extent (if any) are fangame creators limiting their creative growth as opposed to making freeware games for a bigger, more general audience?
Up to the individual maker. I don't know of many bigger, more general audiences for freeware games as large as the fangame community. Also add in the support of the community through guides, the pre-built engines, and more, fangames are very appealing to make for some.
Swordslinger:
I'll answer honestly.
How much appreciation and support (if any) do fangame creators deserve, and are they currently getting enough?
For me personally, it depends on the creator, someone like you who made things like Jtool and put together Spook Jam (Which I still need to play, but i'm currently reserving a spot for 450 clears so i can't play it yet) This question to me is highly dependent on the creator, if they worked hard on something and poured some sweat into something sure they deserve the support and such, but if it's someone who made a happil medley which we see on sometimes a regular basis then keep walking. (I'm quite picky)
Is it okay to heavily criticize people’s fangames that they made on their own time for everyone to enjoy?
In my personal opinion yes, while people do make these fangames for challenge or simply for enjoyment how will you know what's wrong and what's correct without criticism even if it's a lot, Haegoe for instance got heavily criticized for his older games and since then hes improved quite a lot. Although since these are games and games do get heavily criticized by game reviewers i don't see these getting special treatment, since they are still games, just made by the fans.
How much patience and forgiveness (if any) should fangame streamers and players be expected to have?
This is a very person dependent question, since some people can be very patient and not very forgiving and some can be the opposite of that or both patient and forgiving or both not having those traits. It's one i can't personally answer because it depends from person to person.
What is the right balance of encouraging quality fangames while not scaring off potentially good creators?
This depends on the person but not as much as the last question, criticism is always important fuel to the train, as well as praise and not flat out cursing at the creator because something is too hard or too easy or it's just bad, I think all of us have made this mistake of lashing out one time, and depending on the response you either scared away the creator or you didn't. So really this is a very dependent question depending on who you talk too and who has a spine and who doesn't the way i see it.
To what extent can you be proud of a fangame that heavily uses other people’s content? (spook jam, medleys, and in general using music+sprites+sounds made by others)
Hard question honestly, Spook Jam doesn't go very far into using other peoples content so lets leave that out of the mix, I personally like it but it's very dependent on the game, to some extent to me how much the original is respected and how much is going to change or if things will not change it just very depends. In a way i'm not sure how to answer the question and to what medleys i enjoy and what i don't, it's usually a hit or miss thing unless something changes that ruins it for me, so i'm proud depending on if i like it or not, if that makes sense.
Is it okay to use the self-made assets of other people’s fangames?
I'm guessing you mean something like catastrophe has double speed so you make double speed on your own, if you're talking about reusing a gimmick that other people used then yes i think it's fine if you create original screens with it, if that's not the answer then i don't understand your question.
To what extent (if any) are quality fangames not getting attention they deserve?
Very dependent on the fangame, something like a new big release is usually played for a week by damn near everyone and usually dies down to 1-3 people. I honestly can't answer this question for the very reason that quality fangames if noticed do get attention, just it dies down after a bit.
To what extent (if any) are fangame creators limiting their creative growth as opposed to making freeware games for a bigger, more general audience?
None at all, sure you can make fangames for the community here and be very creative with it, however if you were to move onto a different set of games then I think you can still make something creative, experience comes with time and it is really up to you on how you use it.
Hope this helped, these are the best i can answer these.
Starz0r:
Opinions are obviously different for everyone. Not everyone is going to have the same standards for fangames than everyone else.
What we are reaching is the same point that killed the original IWBTG forum. We have this mind set that games have to be such a high quality, without many people be able to meet that standard. I believe because of this, we have a higher frequency of needle games than adventure games these days. Adventure games take a lot of time and effort to make great and make them stand out, and doing one thing wrong can stop people from wanting to play that game or even recommending it to others.
Streamers and Players probably should have more tolerance, but this is kinda hard to gauge. Most of the time, bad design choices deserve being talked down, but we don't really have a guide to avoid pitfalls of 'bad design', leaving it open for other future producers to fall in the same hole. Causing them to leave the community after they've yelled at.
For using other people's content, this is a minefield, and not everyone has the same opinion. Honestly, I think medley's can be fun, and creative, but this would be a hypocritical statement since using other people's rooms and design isn't exactly original. Games like the Kamilia Series, Cultured 2, hell even Happil 2, have a high level of polish and great design choices. Though, a bad medley's defined by the community, are ones that too heavily follow the Kamilia formula. What we need are medleys that do something different, even if it is radically different, or at least try to do something new with using other people's rooms. Hiddow and Sandsky0 had a good concept for a medley that did something different while still following the general medley formula.
Stealing Assets is a really, really, bad thing to do... if the game was being sold. We are making freeware games, not ones that are being sold. So stealing assets should at least have credit given to the original creator, and things should be fine honestly.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
Hectorpaddy:
--- Quote from: patrickgh3 on November 25, 2016, 01:27:39 PM ---How much appreciation and support (if any) do fangame creators deserve, and are they currently getting enough?
--- End quote ---
I don't think that fangame creators are entitled to an abundance of appreciation or support. People (hopefully) make fangames because they have fun doing so, or because they like watching people play their creation. I've never made fangames so that people would be thankful for it and I personally don't believe it's a super productive motivation but I also think it's fine if anyone sees it as such.
--- Quote from: patrickgh3 on November 25, 2016, 01:27:39 PM ---Is it okay to heavily criticize people’s fangames that they made on their own time for everyone to enjoy?
--- End quote ---
Yes. I don't see a good reason why you shouldn't be allowed to point out things that you dislike, even if your opinion is bad you should be allowed to voice it. As I said, people hopefully make fangames because they have fun with it so it's not like they're sacrificing themselves for the greater good. Following statement pretty much applies to all points so I will only say it this once. If you spend a lot of time making fangames and continue doing so despite not having fun with it then I think of you as an idiot.
--- Quote from: patrickgh3 on November 25, 2016, 01:27:39 PM ---How much patience and forgiveness (if any) should fangame streamers and players be expected to have?
--- End quote ---
None. Players play games to have fun, if they're not having fun they shouldn't be expected to sit through it.
--- Quote from: patrickgh3 on November 25, 2016, 01:27:39 PM ---What is the right balance of encouraging quality fangames while not scaring off potentially good creators?
--- End quote ---
This self balances itself in my opinion. Higher quality fangames will on average have a higher likelihood of being played more and thus getting more exposure. (Naturally there are plenty of exceptions and other factors.) People will still play less polished games a lot, so I don't see a reason to do anything about it.
--- Quote from: patrickgh3 on November 25, 2016, 01:27:39 PM ---To what extent can you be proud of a fangame that heavily uses other people’s content? (spook jam, medleys, and in general using music+sprites+sounds made by others)
--- End quote ---
This completely depends on what you're proud of. Personally all I'm proud of in my games (and only a few of them but I won't go into that here) is my platforming design, which I created solely on my own. If you're proud of how your game looks then it depends on how much work you have put into those looks yourself. This can be said for all other points as well.
--- Quote from: patrickgh3 on November 25, 2016, 01:27:39 PM ---Is it okay to use the self-made assets of other people’s fangames?
--- End quote ---
Strictly speaking no, unless you have permission. This is really not something I care about though.
--- Quote from: patrickgh3 on November 25, 2016, 01:27:39 PM ---To what extent (if any) are quality fangames not getting attention they deserve?
--- End quote ---
If you judge solely by how "good" a game is then a lot of games get more attention than they deserve and a lot of games get less attention than they deserve, this applies to pretty much anything in every field. It sucks but it's nothing we can change or should change.
--- Quote from: patrickgh3 on November 25, 2016, 01:27:39 PM ---To what extent (if any) are fangame creators limiting their creative growth as opposed to making freeware games for a bigger, more general audience?
--- End quote ---
A lot and that's part of why I was able to spend so much time with fangames. I can always just sit down and grind some "5000 deaths per save" cancer needle knowing exactly what to expect. I know where to get what I want. I know I will get exactly what I want. I don't have to deal with looking through immeasurable amounts of different concepts, genres, physics, etc to find just what I'm comfortable with, I can just chill out, turn off my brain, go to the wiki, download a game with the word needle in it and in 95% of the cases I don't have to deal with anything new that I have to wrap my head around.
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