Fangames > Game Design
RNG in avoidance. Doing it RIGHT.
zaphod77:
I got hosed FIVE times by that combination,in two variations.
1) i fail to reach the bottom in time because i need to jump to dodge an arrow.
2) one clips my head JUST as the beam ends since the teeny gap blocks my shots unless i jump,and whne the bema is gone it's too late.
Zilch to none, huh?
But since you seem to know so much, what's wrong with my strategy.
FOr bottom i wait on either the floor or the lowest platform. i can dodge anything the game throws at me from there.
The middle is trivial. just wait patiently at the bottom until a clear path opens.
For the top, i see the following.
when the big bullet barrage comes, the safe spot for it is upper corner. there is time to escape when it's followed by the triple laser. while there are other safe spots, that's the one that lets me attack as well.
I drop down to the platform right below during the small bullet barrage. i do it a bit before i actually have to so try to avoid getting trapped by arrows or the triple beam. If i'm already there i jump and shoot.
the attack with the green things the at fly and fire a few shots i simply hop off to dodge the vertical bullet then go back up.
As long as there aren't arrows in the way, i can drop to the bottom to dodge the big red beam.
For the stream attack i wait at either the corner platform or the one under it and switch when they are all on screen to dodge easily.
The green flame will force me out at times, and it sometimes uses a lot of trouble. it is possible to dodge and stay on the upper platform, but it requires a lot of precision.
What ends up getting me
1)arrows show up right after i go into the top corner to dodge a pattern, and sometimes one of them is JUST below my gun and clips me.
2) something else, usually an arrow, forces me to jump and a stream starts DURING the jump, causing a much nastier combo of shots. usually an emergency drop to the ground will get me away, but sometimes there's an arrow in the way...
3) that blasted triple beam starts JUST after i jump to dodge something else, and because i've already comitted to the jump, i can't drop back down in time to dodge it.
4) stupid arrow gets in my way trying to dodge the triple beam.
Is there a 100% safe strategy for taking out the top head quickly?
Sudnep:
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 17, 2016, 07:46:45 PM ---I got hosed FIVE times by that combination,in two variations.
1) i fail to reach the bottom in time because i need to jump to dodge an arrow.
2) one clips my head JUST as the beam ends since the teeny gap blocks my shots unless i jump,and whne the bema is gone it's too late.
Zilch to none, huh?
--- End quote ---
Five times by two different combinations. Only #2 is truly impossible and yes it can happen. Reaching the bottom in time is most likely a player's fault and there are an infinite amount of combinations in which could happen that could slow you down. I'm almost certain that #1 happened more often for you than #2. I still stand by my statement of 'zilch to none'.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 17, 2016, 07:46:45 PM ---For the top, i see the following.
when the big bullet barrage comes, the safe spot for it is upper corner. there is time to escape when it's followed by the triple laser. while there are other safe spots, that's the one that lets me attack as well.
I drop down to the platform right below during the small bullet barrage. i do it a bit before i actually have to so try to avoid getting trapped by arrows or the triple beam. If i'm already there i jump and shoot.
the attack with the green things the at fly and fire a few shots i simply hop off to dodge the vertical bullet then go back up.
As long as there aren't arrows in the way, i can drop to the bottom to dodge the big red beam.
For the stream attack i wait at either the corner platform or the one under it and switch when they are all on screen to dodge easily.
The green flame will force me out at times, and it sometimes uses a lot of trouble. it is possible to dodge and stay on the upper platform, but it requires a lot of precision.
--- End quote ---
Since the Middle/Bottom are arbitrary / easy I'm not going to bother mentioning them since they truly are.
Big Bullet Attack: There is a safe spot in the top left that you already know about but it's risky to stand there. There are several others where you can drop down and stand without getting hit.
Mini Bullet Attack: Easier than the big bullet but the top left corner isn't a safe spot anymore (barely) and it makes more sense to play safe and drop down.
Chex Mix Barrage: Everything is shootable in this and is easy enough to carve your own path. It's completely RNG and even with that you can negate most of it that is in the way.
Triple Laser: Simple Pattern. If you stand in the top left corner during the Big Bullet Attack and this attack follows, you're most likely screwed. This was the risk you take by doing that.
Green Laugh Thing: Easy, the active hit box for it is so short you can just move slightly and move back without much issue.
Targeted Bullet Attack: lol
Green Arm Wiggle Dudes: lol^2; They are hard to die to.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 17, 2016, 07:46:45 PM ---What ends up getting me
1)arrows show up right after i go into the top corner to dodge a pattern, and sometimes one of them is JUST below my gun and clips me.
2) something else, usually an arrow, forces me to jump and a stream starts DURING the jump, causing a much nastier combo of shots. usually an emergency drop to the ground will get me away, but sometimes there's an arrow in the way...
3) that blasted triple beam starts JUST after i jump to dodge something else, and because i've already comitted to the jump, i can't drop back down in time to dodge it.
4) stupid arrow gets in my way trying to dodge the triple beam.
--- End quote ---
1) Top left corner is risky. It's a RISK that a player chooses to dodge one attack rather than going somewhere else for the added benefit of ending the boss fight sooner. Either don't go there or do better at shooting the arrows. This is a fault in strategy.
2)"Stream" I assume means the targeted bullet attack. Choosing the correct path to go is a challenge that the player has to decide. Either they riskily fall down to the bottom to try and get out of the way or they move upwards. Depends on the layout of the RNG more than anything but should hardly be an issue due to the slow speed of the targeted bullet attack.
3) React faster. There is more than enough time to react to dodge it. Again, punishes poor position choice if you decide to dodge the Big Bullet attack at the top left or choose poor positioning for the Chex Mix attack.
4) see #3
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 17, 2016, 07:46:45 PM ---Is there a 100% safe strategy for taking out the top head quickly?
--- End quote ---
No. The boss is designed to kill you and there are iffy situations. You can make it easier by killing the bottom one first, resulting in less bullets and stuff on screen but there is no sure-fire way of killing the boss. Everything you had mentioned with your issues with it has been a positioning/player issue.
I won't argue the fact that the giant laser attack can have impossible RNG and as I said before the chances of it happening are zilch to none. If you're using the GENKI boss as an example of where seeded rng is needed or is the 'right way' to do things then you're grasping at straws and are completely wrong.
Could it have been better designed to prevent that impossible case? Yeah, probably.
Should it be changed? Hardly, it's fine as it is and rarely happens and isn't important enough nor should the create care.
To begin with I am on the side of Denferok and Pandy on this. Walls are hardly common and it's usually a player skill issue than anything else. The amount of effort you want to put into something such as seeded RNG will go unnoticed and will be a waste in time in the end. If you want this 'non-wall' RNG when making a game you're probably designing the attack wrong.
zaphod77:
--- Quote from: Sudnep on January 17, 2016, 09:55:37 PM ---Five times by two different combinations. Only #2 is truly impossible and yes it can happen. Reaching the bottom in time is most likely a player's fault and there are an infinite amount of combinations in which could happen that could slow you down. I'm almost certain that #1 happened more often for you than #2. I still stand by my statement of 'zilch to none'.
--- End quote ---
twice from number 2, and once from number three.
--- Quote ---Big Bullet Attack: There is a safe spot in the top left that you already know about but it's risky to stand there. There are several others where you can drop down and stand without getting hit.
--- End quote ---
i know there are others. but i can't shoot the top head from them.
--- Quote ---Mini Bullet Attack: Easier than the big bullet but the top left corner isn't a safe spot anymore (barely) and it makes more sense to play safe and drop down.
--- End quote ---
that attack itself is no problem. i drop to the second platform and jump and shoot at it.
--- Quote ---Chex Mix Barrage: Everything is shootable in this and is easy enough to carve your own path. It's completely RNG and even with that you can negate most of it that is in the way.
--- End quote ---
Not everything is shootable. an arrow can be high or low enough that you can't shoot it, but it can still clip you. It's not an issue on the bottom because you can rapidly flee for the top if needed. but going from top to bottom is slower to start...
--- Quote ---Triple Laser: Simple Pattern. If you stand in the top left corner during the Big Bullet Attack and this attack follows, you're most likely screwed. This was the risk you take by doing that.
--- End quote ---
You are only screwed if an arrow also gets in the way. I dodged the triple beam after the big bullet spread from the top corner many times.
But if i hold back because arrows MIGHT show up i'll never get a hit.
--- Quote ---Green Laugh Thing: Easy, the active hit box for it is so short you can just move slightly and move back without much issue.
--- End quote ---
I realized the hitbox was ever so slightly smaller then it looked, but are you telling me it's only a few pixels wide?!? That I could have tap dodged it? it sure looks like it's a block width, when i'm on a one block platform
--- Quote ---1) Top left corner is risky. It's a RISK that a player chooses to dodge one attack rather than going somewhere else for the added benefit of ending the boss fight sooner. Either don't go there or do better at shooting the arrows. This is a fault in strategy.
--- End quote ---
There are only two ways to hit the top head that I know of.
1) stand in the top corner, which you say is risky.
2) stand on a platform below that and jump and fire. But that's not safe either. you jump, the triple beeam stars just as you press jump, and a couple of arrows are preventing you from landing back on the platform. t this point you will be hit by either the top or middle beam regardless.
--- Quote ---2)"Stream" I assume means the targeted bullet attack. Choosing the correct path to go is a challenge that the player has to decide. Either they riskily fall down to the bottom to try and get out of the way or they move upwards. Depends on the layout of the RNG more than anything but should hardly be an issue due to the slow speed of the targeted bullet attack.
--- End quote ---
well i can't move upwards if i'm at the top. to properly herd it i have to stand still until the bullets are all on the screen. but when arrows show that's not always an option. the option of the rapid drop to the bottom is sometimes blocked by arrows...
--- Quote ---3) React faster. There is more than enough time to react to dodge it. Again, punishes poor position choice if you decide to dodge the Big Bullet attack at the top left or choose poor positioning for the Chex Mix attack.
4) see #3
--- End quote ---
The issue is the chex mix attack can be COMBINED with any other attack. it's trivial to deal with on it's own, but many combinations can force you out of position, causing a "positioning error"
--- Quote ---...there is no sure-fire way of killing the boss. Everything you had mentioned with your issues with it has been a positioning/player issue.
--- End quote ---
If the boss cannot be mastered to the point of being killed on every attempt, then by definition it has unfair RNG.
--- Quote ---I won't argue the fact that the giant laser attack can have impossible RNG and as I said before the chances of it happening are zilch to none.
--- End quote ---
You are attacking the top head. You are doing this because the bottom head is already beaten. you are doing this by jumping from the second platform, because that's the safer method. Arrows show, so naturally you are jumping and shooting them as well and hoping to shoot a mushroom. You see the danger show up the instant you pressed the jump. you need to drop down fast. but there's an arrow passing through the gap you need to use. What's the right thing to do? how is that always escapeable?
Can you outline a strategy that guarantees a win that doesn't require psychic RNG predicting powers?
I'm fully aware that a good 50-70% of the deaths were my fault. i'd mess up a jump or react too slowly to the triple beam, or be suprized when a second one shows up when i hop back to the top after dodging the first beam (this is totally dodgeable, but you have to be alert).
Hindsight is 20/20. as long as rng isn't involved, stuff that's pretty much unsurviveable the first time is to be expected. But it really ticks me off when the rng causes deaths that are only avoidable in retrospect.
Oddly enough, i felt that every single death on the chase section was either pilot error or new territory.
Oh yeah. I wanna be the dark blue. That games final boss, as included in i wanna get rekt. The one i was only able to beat when it decided it didn't want to summon a chaser. that rapid charge attack (that you have to dodge with about 7 well timed jumps, one for each charge) is pretty much impossible to deal with when the chaser forces you to jump at the wrong time and you get skewered at the apex of the jump you were forced into by the fast chaser. I don't consider that good boss design.
just_another_Guy:
You can easily kill the chaser quickly enough in Dark Blue, and then get to a position where dodging the other attacks is most comfortable for you (probably exactly opposite of the boss). Pretty much guaranteed win everytime once you learn how to dodge his attacks.
Sudnep:
tl;dr Get better at fangames
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---twice from number 2, and once from number three.
--- End quote ---
How many times overall? Kind of important I would say. If you have had it happen 2 times out of 200 it personally still falls in the category of zilch to none. That's also 3, not 5. I know you obviously won't have perfect statistic recording because nobody does that unless they're a tool.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---i know there are others. but i can't shoot the top head from them.
--- End quote ---
Then you can't shoot the top head from them. A risk. I already mentioned this.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---Not everything is shootable. an arrow can be high or low enough that you can't shoot it, but it can still clip you. It's not an issue on the bottom because you can rapidly flee for the top if needed. but going from top to bottom is slower to start...
--- End quote ---
Everything is shootable that matters. Grasping at straws and if it's so low that it can only clip you obviously don't try and shoot it and either jump over it or drop for a short reminisce minute. Yes, Top is harder than the bottom. Hardly a problem. Use a brain to decide what's worth shooting and what isn't. It's part of the difficulty of the attack and the difficulty of it matters depending on where you are when it starts and what is before it. Play risky and you might get 'walled' but that's your fault, not the games.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---You are only screwed if an arrow also gets in the way. I dodged the triple beam after the big bullet spread from the top corner many times.
--- End quote ---
Big Bullet Attack, top left corner. Risky. You're blaming your risky play style on the game. Stop bullshitting with me.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---But if i hold back because arrows MIGHT show up i'll never get a hit.
--- End quote ---
Ding Ding Ding
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---I realized the hitbox was ever so slightly smaller then it looked, but are you telling me it's only a few pixels wide?!? That I could have tap dodged it? it sure looks like it's a block width, when i'm on a one block platform
--- End quote ---
Yes. That's what I'm telling you. It's the easiest attack in the boss.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---There are only two ways to hit the top head that I know of.
1) stand in the top corner, which you say is risky.
2) stand on a platform below that and jump and fire. But that's not safe either. you jump, the triple beeam stars just as you press jump, and a couple of arrows are preventing you from landing back on the platform. t this point you will be hit by either the top or middle beam regardless.
--- End quote ---
Yes it's risky standing on the top left corner.
You're specifying a specific example of where you die in this case. Attack X occurs. You know that Attack Z is a possibility, do you take the risk in going for damage when you know it might get dicy? Stop bullshitting me. Use your brain and accept that there are consequences of how you do an attack.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---well i can't move upwards if i'm at the top. to properly herd it i have to stand still until the bullets are all on the screen. but when arrows show that's not always an option. the option of the rapid drop to the bottom is sometimes blocked by arrows...
--- End quote ---
You don't have to stand still to 'herd it'. As ong as you don't jump like a maniac you're fine and even if you do it's still dodgeable. This is a skill thing. Again, you're using the arrows as an excuse to dying. go back to what I had just said, stop bulshitting me.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---The issue is the chex mix attack can be COMBINED with any other attack. it's trivial to deal with on it's own, but many combinations can force you out of position, causing a "positioning error"
--- End quote ---
You can always be in a safe place because you can shoot everything in it. If you're in a place that you can't shoot stuff you're obviously not in a safe place. Another bullshit excuse. It can't force you out of position unless your position is risky.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---If the boss cannot be mastered to the point of being killed on every attempt, then by definition it has unfair RNG.
--- End quote ---
un·fair
ˌənˈfer/
adjective
not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
Taking out from the defintiion you want an equal and justful way of surefire doing a boss. Unequal RNG exists solely because it is RNG. Unjust RNG again, exists solely because it is RNG. You're looking for an answer that doesn't exists and the only answer is not to use RNG at all, and nobody with a brain is ever going to do that. As much as you willfully try to take out the unfair aspect the more it becomes bland, boring, unimportant, unnoticed, and pointless. Exclaiming that this is the 'right way' of doing RNG is a horrible misinterpretation for the reason RNG exists.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---You are attacking the top head. You are doing this because the bottom head is already beaten. you are doing this by jumping from the second platform, because that's the safer method. Arrows show, so naturally you are jumping and shooting them as well and hoping to shoot a mushroom. You see the danger show up the instant you pressed the jump. you need to drop down fast. but there's an arrow passing through the gap you need to use. What's the right thing to do? how is that always escapeable?
--- End quote ---
'...You see the danger show up the instant you pressed the jump.' Obviously let go of jump, this isn't a text based adventure game where you immediately react but your instinct obviously is to let go or gauge the time it takes for the attack to appear and the time it will take to dodge whatever might come from the bottom.
'...but there's an arrow passing through the gap you need to use.' You already fucked up. Again, stop bullshitting me. You made a poor decision and your blaming RNG.
'...What's the right thing to do? how is that always escapeable?'Get good.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---Can you outline a strategy that guarantees a win that doesn't require psychic RNG predicting powers?
--- End quote ---
There exists no strategy to guarentee a win 100% on this boss. You also don't need this 'psychic' powers you're mentioning. What a fucking joke.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---I'm fully aware that a good 50-70% of the deaths were my fault. i'd mess up a jump or react too slowly to the triple beam, or be suprized when a second one shows up when i hop back to the top after dodging the first beam (this is totally dodgeable, but you have to be alert).
--- End quote ---
Try 99%. That's a more realistic made up statistic. If you want to be even more of a joke the winning play is not to even play the game, that way I could say it's 100% your fault for playing an obviously unfair boss. In the end if you'd rather argue a point as to why a boss needs to be changed rather than getting better to complete it I believe you're playing the wrong games.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---Hindsight is 20/20. as long as rng isn't involved, stuff that's pretty much unsurviveable the first time is to be expected.
--- End quote ---
You'd pretty much be hopeless if you thought that you people should do bosses with no issue the first time around so at least that's something.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---But it really ticks me off when the rng causes deaths that are only avoidable in retrospect.
--- End quote ---
Hardly exists and only happens with poor design.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---Oddly enough, i felt that every single death on the chase section was either pilot error or new territory.
--- End quote ---
Chase section isn't tough nor really important. The issue if any exists with not knowing what the platform looks like ahead of time but that falls between the lines of not knowing what kind of difficulty at what point a boss contains ahead of time.
--- Quote from: zaphod77 on January 18, 2016, 04:08:04 PM ---Oh yeah. I wanna be the dark blue. That games final boss, as included in i wanna get rekt. The one i was only able to beat when it decided it didn't want to summon a chaser. that rapid charge attack (that you have to dodge with about 7 well timed jumps, one for each charge) is pretty much impossible to deal with when the chaser forces you to jump at the wrong time and you get skewered at the apex of the jump you were forced into by the fast chaser. I don't consider that good boss design.
--- End quote ---
I don't know enough about this nor do I remember it. I didn't enjoy playing Dark Blue anyway so I let it slip from my mind.
Regardless you're still complaining about something that can be solved by getting better at fangames in general. The point of this post is chatter about philosophy of what's fair and justice in random game design elements by using impossible outcomes as an excuse as to why something is bad or injustice while these impossible outcomes that I have seen listed are either completely subjective, cases of extremity, or in the one case that I have seen mentioned, actually true.
You shouldn't be making a post with a title exclaiming that this is the correct way to do something when you don't know anything about making a game or are a good enough player to analyze game elements like this.
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