Author Topic: On Originality In Fangames  (Read 4744 times)

Derf

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On Originality In Fangames
« on: August 03, 2015, 07:43:19 PM »
Original thread.

As you might note, I simply said I hope that Yoberg goes in a direction that is more traditional (in terms of fangames) than copying a flash game in the future, whereas you seem to have read me as demanding that he do so.
I never said you demanded he not do it, I said you shouldn't be encouraging Yoberg away from experimentation and into traditionalism. Critique isn't helpful when it is as encompassing as asking someone to change their entire direction. You have to respect people's individual artistic vision in critique because they are creating the product for themselves and not for you. Telling them certain aspects didn't work for you and/or need changing is fine, but when you're encouraging them to change direction completely that is when you begin to act like you're entitled to the finished product they are creating. It's the same as me suggesting people who create needle games use more gimmicks and less spikes - it's a fruitless exercise (pun intended). Yoberg is new here and shouldn't be encouraged into conforming when they clearly have a knack for creativity and thinking outside the box.

As to your argument: if you examine a few of the most popular fangames (let's just say Boshy and KTG,) I think you'll see that a lot of games following them have trended towards using the same sorts of mechanics such as jump refreshers, laser gating, gravity flips, etc. Since we can safely assume that they aren't just because the code is easily available (because as far as I've seen, it isn't,) the more reasonable conclusion to draw would be that the creators of the next generations of games enjoyed playing them in previous games and tried to improve on them. For example: I would argue that I Wanna Find My Destiny's laser gating draws heavily on KTGs (although this is completely based on personal observation.) Destiny also uses a wide variety of other gimmicks that I would not personally call original per-say, but is one of the most well-recieved fangames (9.4 on Delicious Fruit out of 9 reviews, which is a fairly big sample size when it comes to data around here.) NANG is another game that uses a wide variety of time-tested gimmicks (gravity manipulation, conveyors, etc.,) and twists them into less standard forms (triple jump as an evolution of jump refreshing, for example.) It currently has a 9.4 after 14 reviews on Delicious Fruit. The originality within both of these games, and there is a lot, is more concentrated on polish and graphical flourishes, as well as the combination of a wide variety of mechanics into small sections (again, based on my observation.)
You've missed my point entirely & this again revolves around the reason why people, Yoberg in this instance, create games. It does not matter what is considered popular by the majority here. Yoberg does not have to cater to what is popular and/or what has the highest score on Delicious Fruit because Yoberg is creating the game for their own enjoyment. What I said is that there are plenty of people out there who want to see more left-field games such as what Yoberg has created and the implication of that was if they should continue they would have support. Sure, those who want to stray away from traditionalism are probably a smaller group, but the size is irrelevant, what's relevant is that there exist people who want to support and cultivate this kind of fangame creation. I understand your point that not all originality is born equal, and that you can be creative and original without throwing away the manual and starting again; this is something I have not disputed. But you need to respect that for some people, their artistic vision will take them farther than what has already been established and into new territory.

There is, and long has been even since I joined the fangame community, a culture of suppressing originality when critiquing fangames and it's something that needs to stop. Like I said, I don't think games that don't push boundaries are bad, not at all; I play and enjoy all types of fangames. I see the value and worth in games that are filled with spikes and delicious fruit and jump refreshers. But it excites me most when someone tries something new. People create the type of fangame they want to see and play. You cannot argue with or wrestle someone's intention, only their method of carrying out their intention.



A few nitpicky points that don't really add or detract from the discussion:
-Yes, the codes for all of those things are easily available. Gravity flipping comes in many stock engines. Jump refreshers are not only painfully easy to code, but I've seen threads where the code is posted (and at the very least most if not all engines come with water in them, the code for which is essentially the same thing so it is readily available). As for laser-gating, while I've not seen the code posted on forums (though I don't check game design threads that often) the coding is again, relatively easy to work out and with the rise of decompilers are skype groups of experienced fangame creators, I doubt it would be hard for even the most inexperiences of fangame creators to gain access to. But I kinda think it's neither here not there.

-Popularity != quality. Hell popularity doesn't even mean popularity. While the production value of Boshy is high and it was incredibly popular when it came out, you'll find that the consensus amongst most people on the inside of the fangame community is that is absolutely sucks, while most of the attention it gets is from outside the community with it being featured on many popular youtubers accounts etc. Popularity ultimately means nothing when you're doing this as a hobby.



Thank you for replying and taking the time out to find statistics, Kyir.

tehjman1993

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2015, 07:56:18 PM »

There is, and long has been even since I joined the fangame community, a culture of suppressing originality when critiquing fangames and it's something that needs to stop.
-Popularity != quality. Hell popularity doesn't even mean popularity. While the production value of Boshy is high and it was incredibly popular when it came out, you'll find that the consensus amongst most people on the inside of the fangame community is that is absolutely sucks, while most of the attention it gets is from outside the community with it being featured on many popular youtubers accounts etc. Popularity ultimately means nothing when you're doing this as a hobby.

If you honestly think we're suppressing originality, you are the most disconnected of us all. Watch our streams and read our discussions for two seconds and you'll see we promote all kinds of creative and new ways to implement gimmicks and fun into fangames. Your generalization is terrible. Critiques of fangames stem from unoriginal gimmicks and gameplay. Delicious-Fruit is a clear example of this, I need no statistics to back me up there.

Boshy isn't seen as "bad" inside our community either. Maybe mediocre at worst to some. The majority agree that Boshy is a must-play and is the creativity that we look for, both "inside" and "outside" our community. It isn't the anti-popularity train you're riding. Once again, had you any knowledge of how our community thinks, acts, and responds, you would have never made any of these comments.

There was no need to carry on this conversation from the previous thread, and its disturbing to see an extremely minor, honest comment attacked on a personal level.

Kyir

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2015, 08:36:13 PM »
You're making this out to be like a witchhunt on our part to stop literally everything new and it's really... not. Most people around here are both proponents and creators of new ideas, to the point where I constantly ask for help with stuff I don't really understand from them. I understand if you have a problem with some conflation of popularity and quality on my part (which I did sort of suggest, though I think it's a very murky topic when it comes to games that are intended for consumption,) but you should really leave pretty much everyone else out of it.

I think it's really interesting that you don't think I have access to the "inside" of the fangame community too.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 08:56:08 PM by Kyir »

yoburg

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2015, 10:04:08 PM »
As for me being utterly unskilled in fangaming I think making games you can't beat is kinda stupid. And I think that Good Level Design is what should every game developer tend to.

P.S. Tell me who's the Yoberg guy that started all this mess? I wanna punch him into face :Kappa:

Katz

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2015, 10:15:27 PM »
P.S. Tell me who's the Yoberg guy that started all this mess? I wanna punch him into face :Kappa:

Lmao
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 11:25:37 PM by Katz »

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2015, 10:16:18 PM »
Wow this got heated :o

To add some more opinion on that, I don't really think the reason you put out as to why people make games... or stuff in general is really universal, some people might really make it just for themselves, but then criticism isn't even that accepted by them because they're not making it for people to like, others make entirely for the purpose of making something popular and I think most people are a midway meeting between those 2.

Also this community really doesn't try to sugarcoat criticism at all, but in general I think the criticism about experimental gimmicks is the application of or the idea itself, but not the fact that the maker experimented, even if you say the game is absolute garbage and the gimmicks are terrible, that doesn't necessarily mean you're discouraging the experimentation itself, and I don't think that happens much here, although we are picky about the physics in the fangames when they're different, usually.

Kyir

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2015, 10:22:13 PM »
The fact that Kyir blatantly told you to make something more """"""""traditional""""""""" is invalidating just about every argument he made.

I don't think you guys understand what "hope" means.

I hope they make a more traditional game because they clearly know what they're doing when it comes to code and I enjoy seeing people play these games. That's all? If I wanted to demand that someone make a game exactly according to my specifications I would do that.

Might I add that you've been pretty much starting fires (or well, attempting to) on the other community just for shits and giggles. Just for people to keep in mind when you try to regain your ethos.

Feel free to try and point out some instance of that happening, but these personal attacks are really counterproductive to what you guys are clearly trying to say. I'd suggest drawing on some examples to support your point instead of just saying Kyir's making tyrannical demands and doesn't understand art (which yes, is an exaggeration.)

Derf

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2015, 10:39:25 PM »
Ok. I'm busy right now and can't post a full reply, which I will do tomorrow. Just wanted to make a few quick points:

1). When I said fangame community I did not mean this forum & this forum alone. It's not a personal thing, I'm including the other forums of which I have been a part of for almost 6 years, various disparate skype groups and these forums.

2). While Katz and I might have similar opinions, we are separate people making separate points, so saying "you guys" isn't exactly productive when we've said different things, Kyir. There's really no need to paint us with the same brush.

3). It was necessary to continue as I was told by a moderator not to derail further and in my opinion Kyir is wrong. It's a debate and I should not be chastised for responding.

4). Again you keep trying to pretend that I accused you of "demanding" Yoberg do anything, which I did not and do not.

yoburg

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2015, 10:44:32 PM »
I hope they make a more traditional game because they clearly know what they're doing when it comes to code and I enjoy seeing people play these games.
Im 100% sure you wouldn't have said so if you actually saw my code.

Kyir

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2015, 10:50:33 PM »
You've repeatedly suggested that I was attempting to change their mind (who knows what that is anyway, I have no idea what their intention is regarding game creation going forward,) so while you may have never used to word demand, you've certainly been suggesting that I am actively attempting to change the creator of that game's course, and in fact you suggested that this is a general attitude of the entire community. Both of these are misleading, and closer to being false honestly.

I apologize for including both of you in the same category, and mainly meant it to refer to the personal attacks that both of you were making in the course of discussion.

I really have no interest in continuing this conversation unless you plan on providing specific examples to support your point though. Discussions regarding art, consumption, etc. are inherently going to have some element of opinion, but there's no point in going any further unless you plan on addressing the points I've been trying to make. We'll see tomorrow I suppose.

I hope they make a more traditional game because they clearly know what they're doing when it comes to code and I enjoy seeing people play these games.
Im 100% sure you wouldn't have said so if you actually saw my code.

My coding is pretty much 4th grade level, so I'm sure you're a few tiers of sophistication over me at least.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 10:57:32 PM by Kyir »

infern0man1

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2015, 11:19:10 PM »
There was no need to carry on this conversation from the previous thread, and its disturbing to see an extremely minor, honest comment attacked on a personal level.

I told them to carry it on here because it wasn't entirely on topic in the original thread; it wasn't really helping Yoburg much in terms of what he could do differently in his next projects, which I personally think is what most of those threads should be used for other than giving a DL link.


Edit: looking through it all, I can't really see anything that could be justified as a personal attack, although I originally got the impression that is was. Hopefully the conversation can progress without as much heat as it had; if it continues to devolve, I will take action on it.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 12:31:11 AM by infern0man1 »

Kyir

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2015, 01:05:33 AM »
I would personally call "Just because you're too scared to stop using the crutch of jump refreshers doesn't mean other people aren't capable enough to go out there and create something new and interesting." a personal attack, but it's a matter of opinion obviously. I don't appreciate my integrity being questioned when I'm trying to have a nice and honest discussion.

Katz

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2015, 02:19:40 PM »
This has honestly gone nowhere. People's opinions can't be changed altogether, and that's the beauty (or, in this case, repulsiveness) of discussions. We can only enlighten onto what's statistically correct, rather than shoving our sense of pathos everywhere.

Kyir, you may have taken my+derf's "attacks" personally, but the only one here who did the most aggression in a nonaggressive topic was me. If youre going to blame anyone for personal attacks it should easily be me. It was foolish of me to make sleazy comments like such, and it looked bad on my part.

Sure, print screen keys as jumping/shooting buttons MAY be original, but they are inconvenient; so are the repetitive use of gimmicks that we've all seen before too well (inspired or not, repetition can be annoying altogether). Derf made a lot of valid points that if you choose to discern over an emotional blind-fold, that's all you. I can understand why it triggered him in the sense that we, personally, hate repetition; for someone to "hope" that another fragment of something we've all seen before is made rather than something new would even piss me off, but it's an opinion altogether. Kyir never said "make the game like so and so or else we're going to shit on it."

It's been an ongoing stereotype that this community has a lot of the same thing with needle games. Doesn't justify the inferences, but it's true. Let's face it. Not everyone likes doing the same thing over and over, and no one likes bashing ideas. This is something we all could do to, in a way, be open to change. All we need to do is exchange opinions, not bash someone for it/discern and ignore whatever they say just because you "feel like it." It's this, simply put. Either we discuss on the real topic here, or /thread

Derf

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Re: On Originality In Fangames
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2015, 07:08:44 PM »
Sorry for the slightly 24+ hour break, I had a lot of unexpected personal things to attend to.

I'd like to start by prefacing this with the fact that unless I've said something directly, don't attribute it to me. E.g. I've said repeatedly I enjoy the creation of and playing of needle games, so when Katz says "we, personally, hate repetition", it's untrue: my point is not that repetition is bad, but that innovation is exciting and shouldn't be discouraged. I even specifically said that I don't view one as inherently better or worse than the other. It would be appreciated if a). people stopped talking for me and b). my opinion and argument was no longer conflated with someone entirely separate's.

More or less Kyir the problem is you keep trying to invalidate my argument without actually discussing the topic itself. You've repeatedly accused me of personal attacks, when the only thing I've said resembling one was the jump refresher comment. Which, yes was underhanded and non-conducive to discussion - I hope you realise I meant it more lightly than you appear to have taken it. It's time to stop playing the personal attack card like it invalidates anything I've said. As for the whole "demand" situation, you again are trying to strawman my argument. The word I used repeatedly, and purposefully, was "encourage", which nowhere in the English language will you find is anywhere near the word "demand". Yes they are both verbs used when talking about trying to instigate change, you are correct, but one is forceful, which you were not, and the other is about cultivation. So maybe we should stop playing that card as well.

As for the over-reaction to my comment about a culture of suppressing originality, lets get a few things straight: I do not mean exclusively this forum, I mean both forums (the Kayin one I have spent more time on) and the community I have met personally through social media, and I do not mean to imply it is something that the majority of people do, merely that there is or has been a trend of it (dating back as far as I can remember 6 years or so ago) in the past from small groups of people within the community (again community meaning both forums and all skype groups I have been a part of, which I know isn't everyone as there are Korean/Japanese communities but I'm not a part of them; though I could make a case for them as well after the whole IWKTG assets incident). Maybe you've conflated my comments about the majority of people here enjoying traditionalism most and there being a persuasion out of originality, so perhaps I should have worded it more lightly to show that these groups of people are not the same in my mind. It's honestly something that has broken down over time and it's not a massive problem anymore but it is something I still see around. It's not a new problem, it's an old annoyance. Also, I never once said you don't have access to the inside of the community, Kyir.

It should be noted that this argument is bigger than your comment Kyir, though it was prompted by things you said. It wasn't your original statement that spurred on the discussion it was your second one where you defended your original statement and argued Katz' statement (which I don't 100% agree with either) by saying that largely innovation isn't really what most people want, they just want a solid traditional game over "ten million new gimmicks". My problem with this statement, is what I've repeatedly said: it doesn't matter what the people want as people should be free to create the games they want to create, they do not have to cater to the public opinion. Obviously this is a grey area as I do not believe in censorship of criticism, but I do think we have a personal responsibility when taking on the role of a critic to understand which of our points are helpful and constructive, and which are dangerous/useless. The point I'm making is that encouraging, not demanding, someone to change their artistic direction is as useless as asking Needle game creators to not use spikes, or Avoidance creators not to use vocaloid music. I don't think saying something like "this section is much to hard, in order for it to be more enjoyable it should be nerfed" is trying to change artistic direction, because it's a change within the boundaries of the game, but when you are saying you wish a game had an entirely different focus/structure completely, that is asking an entire project to be different. Granted you hoped the next project would be more traditional and not the current one, but the problem still stands that were dissuading Yoburg away from innovation which on principle I disagree with because, as you have noted, traditionalism is far more popular than experimentation and therefore innovation should be cultivated and not dissuaded. I was not trying to imply that your words were so damaging that now Yoburg will never make another fun fangame, or anything like that either.



Wow this got heated :o

To add some more opinion on that, I don't really think the reason you put out as to why people make games... or stuff in general is really universal, some people might really make it just for themselves, but then criticism isn't even that accepted by them because they're not making it for people to like, others make entirely for the purpose of making something popular and I think most people are a midway meeting between those 2.

Also this community really doesn't try to sugarcoat criticism at all, but in general I think the criticism about experimental gimmicks is the application of or the idea itself, but not the fact that the maker experimented, even if you say the game is absolute garbage and the gimmicks are terrible, that doesn't necessarily mean you're discouraging the experimentation itself, and I don't think that happens much here, although we are picky about the physics in the fangames when they're different, usually.
Certainly we don't know the precise amalgamation of reasons as to why people make games as there are going to be a lot of extraneous factors involved, but assuming the creator doesn't have a gun to their head it's likely that first and foremost they are creating a game because that is how they want to spend their time. I don't think it's a scale like that and I don't think people work in a binary fashion of either creating for themselves or the community. I can tell you now I create my games 100% for myself and my own enjoyment but I still accept all criticism I receive and usually change a lot depending on what people have said. This has nothing to do with trying to appease the community or those who have criticised my games, it's to do with the fact that I appreciate my role as a creator procures a certain amount of bias between me and my product and that I don't always know what's best. If someone says something I disagree with I won't change it, but most of the time criticism acts as a second opinion on game creating decisions and someone saying for example something like "I wish this projectile was a different colour as it's hard to make out against the background" is valuable to me and may be something I hadn't noticed on my own, so making the change is still me carrying out my own desires first and foremost.

Yeah, my comment was somewhat misinterpreted. I've lurked on this place for a long time, but since I've been active here and watching twitch streams I've not really seen much bashing experimentation for the sake of it. Luckily it's been dying out slowly for a few years and is/was most prevalent in other facets of the community, but I still have a knee-jerk reaction to it when I see it. I'm not sure where I gave the impression that I think any criticism of an experimental fangame is simply because it's experimental or that thinking outside the box when creating a game grants you immunity to criticism of things that are actually problems with the game because I can assure you I really don't feel that way.



I hope they make a more traditional game because they clearly know what they're doing when it comes to code and I enjoy seeing people play these games.
Im 100% sure you wouldn't have said so if you actually saw my code.
Eh, as long as it runs it runs has always been my motto haha.