Fangames > Game Design

On Originality In Fangames

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Derf:
Original thread.


--- Quote from: Kyir on August 03, 2015, 05:19:36 PM ---As you might note, I simply said I hope that Yoberg goes in a direction that is more traditional (in terms of fangames) than copying a flash game in the future, whereas you seem to have read me as demanding that he do so.
--- End quote ---
I never said you demanded he not do it, I said you shouldn't be encouraging Yoberg away from experimentation and into traditionalism. Critique isn't helpful when it is as encompassing as asking someone to change their entire direction. You have to respect people's individual artistic vision in critique because they are creating the product for themselves and not for you. Telling them certain aspects didn't work for you and/or need changing is fine, but when you're encouraging them to change direction completely that is when you begin to act like you're entitled to the finished product they are creating. It's the same as me suggesting people who create needle games use more gimmicks and less spikes - it's a fruitless exercise (pun intended). Yoberg is new here and shouldn't be encouraged into conforming when they clearly have a knack for creativity and thinking outside the box.


--- Quote from: Kyir on August 03, 2015, 05:19:36 PM ---As to your argument: if you examine a few of the most popular fangames (let's just say Boshy and KTG,) I think you'll see that a lot of games following them have trended towards using the same sorts of mechanics such as jump refreshers, laser gating, gravity flips, etc. Since we can safely assume that they aren't just because the code is easily available (because as far as I've seen, it isn't,) the more reasonable conclusion to draw would be that the creators of the next generations of games enjoyed playing them in previous games and tried to improve on them. For example: I would argue that I Wanna Find My Destiny's laser gating draws heavily on KTGs (although this is completely based on personal observation.) Destiny also uses a wide variety of other gimmicks that I would not personally call original per-say, but is one of the most well-recieved fangames (9.4 on Delicious Fruit out of 9 reviews, which is a fairly big sample size when it comes to data around here.) NANG is another game that uses a wide variety of time-tested gimmicks (gravity manipulation, conveyors, etc.,) and twists them into less standard forms (triple jump as an evolution of jump refreshing, for example.) It currently has a 9.4 after 14 reviews on Delicious Fruit. The originality within both of these games, and there is a lot, is more concentrated on polish and graphical flourishes, as well as the combination of a wide variety of mechanics into small sections (again, based on my observation.)

--- End quote ---
You've missed my point entirely & this again revolves around the reason why people, Yoberg in this instance, create games. It does not matter what is considered popular by the majority here. Yoberg does not have to cater to what is popular and/or what has the highest score on Delicious Fruit because Yoberg is creating the game for their own enjoyment. What I said is that there are plenty of people out there who want to see more left-field games such as what Yoberg has created and the implication of that was if they should continue they would have support. Sure, those who want to stray away from traditionalism are probably a smaller group, but the size is irrelevant, what's relevant is that there exist people who want to support and cultivate this kind of fangame creation. I understand your point that not all originality is born equal, and that you can be creative and original without throwing away the manual and starting again; this is something I have not disputed. But you need to respect that for some people, their artistic vision will take them farther than what has already been established and into new territory.

There is, and long has been even since I joined the fangame community, a culture of suppressing originality when critiquing fangames and it's something that needs to stop. Like I said, I don't think games that don't push boundaries are bad, not at all; I play and enjoy all types of fangames. I see the value and worth in games that are filled with spikes and delicious fruit and jump refreshers. But it excites me most when someone tries something new. People create the type of fangame they want to see and play. You cannot argue with or wrestle someone's intention, only their method of carrying out their intention.


A few nitpicky points that don't really add or detract from the discussion:
-Yes, the codes for all of those things are easily available. Gravity flipping comes in many stock engines. Jump refreshers are not only painfully easy to code, but I've seen threads where the code is posted (and at the very least most if not all engines come with water in them, the code for which is essentially the same thing so it is readily available). As for laser-gating, while I've not seen the code posted on forums (though I don't check game design threads that often) the coding is again, relatively easy to work out and with the rise of decompilers are skype groups of experienced fangame creators, I doubt it would be hard for even the most inexperiences of fangame creators to gain access to. But I kinda think it's neither here not there.

-Popularity != quality. Hell popularity doesn't even mean popularity. While the production value of Boshy is high and it was incredibly popular when it came out, you'll find that the consensus amongst most people on the inside of the fangame community is that is absolutely sucks, while most of the attention it gets is from outside the community with it being featured on many popular youtubers accounts etc. Popularity ultimately means nothing when you're doing this as a hobby.


Thank you for replying and taking the time out to find statistics, Kyir.

tehjman1993:

--- Quote from: Derf on August 03, 2015, 07:43:19 PM ---
There is, and long has been even since I joined the fangame community, a culture of suppressing originality when critiquing fangames and it's something that needs to stop.
-Popularity != quality. Hell popularity doesn't even mean popularity. While the production value of Boshy is high and it was incredibly popular when it came out, you'll find that the consensus amongst most people on the inside of the fangame community is that is absolutely sucks, while most of the attention it gets is from outside the community with it being featured on many popular youtubers accounts etc. Popularity ultimately means nothing when you're doing this as a hobby.

--- End quote ---

If you honestly think we're suppressing originality, you are the most disconnected of us all. Watch our streams and read our discussions for two seconds and you'll see we promote all kinds of creative and new ways to implement gimmicks and fun into fangames. Your generalization is terrible. Critiques of fangames stem from unoriginal gimmicks and gameplay. Delicious-Fruit is a clear example of this, I need no statistics to back me up there.

Boshy isn't seen as "bad" inside our community either. Maybe mediocre at worst to some. The majority agree that Boshy is a must-play and is the creativity that we look for, both "inside" and "outside" our community. It isn't the anti-popularity train you're riding. Once again, had you any knowledge of how our community thinks, acts, and responds, you would have never made any of these comments.

There was no need to carry on this conversation from the previous thread, and its disturbing to see an extremely minor, honest comment attacked on a personal level.

Kyir:
You're making this out to be like a witchhunt on our part to stop literally everything new and it's really... not. Most people around here are both proponents and creators of new ideas, to the point where I constantly ask for help with stuff I don't really understand from them. I understand if you have a problem with some conflation of popularity and quality on my part (which I did sort of suggest, though I think it's a very murky topic when it comes to games that are intended for consumption,) but you should really leave pretty much everyone else out of it.

I think it's really interesting that you don't think I have access to the "inside" of the fangame community too.

yoburg:
As for me being utterly unskilled in fangaming I think making games you can't beat is kinda stupid. And I think that Good Level Design is what should every game developer tend to.

P.S. Tell me who's the Yoberg guy that started all this mess? I wanna punch him into face :Kappa:

Katz:

--- Quote from: yoburg on August 03, 2015, 10:04:08 PM ---P.S. Tell me who's the Yoberg guy that started all this mess? I wanna punch him into face :Kappa:

--- End quote ---

Lmao

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