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Fangames => Gameplay & Discussion => Topic started by: Kinata on April 11, 2014, 01:59:05 AM

Title: Alternate Physics?
Post by: Kinata on April 11, 2014, 01:59:05 AM
There is evidence that fangames behave differently on certain computers, in particular those of a few Asian players. For those that haven't talked to me about this before, what I'm referring to is a phenomenon of certain Asian players doing challenges that seem to be physically impossible for Westerners. The most famous example of this is multiple Japanese and Korean players purporting to beat "the Leehe Trap jump" (a triple diamond raised one tile), which is impossible on Western computers (Shadow says he did it once, but since he hasn't been able to reproduce this or get in on video, I don't know what to make of that).

The clearest evidence is this video showing Qoo beating a jump in Brute of a Man that has been thoroughly tested and shown to be impossible, at least on our computers: httpss://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqz97O7Yb2M
His double jump seems to defy the physics that the Kid follows in Western computers. Also, him getting this far in the game would have required him to beat another impossible jump earlier in the level. Furthermore, Kamilia claims that two players have beaten the entirety of the game (and I highly doubt he was referring to the mod).

I really want us to find out more about this discrepancy in physics, but it's difficult due to the language barrier. I would really appreciate it if anyone here who has contact with a good part of the Japanese or especially Korean community to help me get information on this. I would like to have the players who are able to pull of these impossible tasks to perform certain tests for me that would allow me to figure out exactly what's going on. Also, we shouldn't discount the possibility that there are Western computers with these alternate physics. If anyone wants to test the jump in the video above, just put into Geezer's program and see if it's beatable on your computer. It's a rather simple jump, so if it is possible on your computer, it shouldn't be too hard to clear.

Ideally, we should be able to modify the Yuuutu engine so that it behaves under the rules of these other physics even on Western computers, so that challenges like Brute can be available to us (without having to artificially mod it to be beatable under our physics).
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: Plynq on April 11, 2014, 02:22:27 AM
Lets all buy korean Windows xp computers yay

EDIT- also i dont think we should change the engine physics -
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: HAEGOE on April 11, 2014, 03:45:33 AM
Quote from: Plynq on April 11, 2014, 02:22:27 AM
Lets all buy korean Windows xp computers yay

EDIT- also i dont think we should change the engine physics -
Microsoft stopped support on XP
so it's either getting through impossible segment or getting your security wrecked :KappaHD:
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: ethinthenougathorn on April 11, 2014, 04:59:06 AM
 Alternate Physics?  obviously, yes!
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: Kinata on April 11, 2014, 08:59:57 AM
Quote from: Plynq on April 11, 2014, 02:22:27 AM
Lets all buy korean Windows xp computers yay

EDIT- also i dont think we should change the engine physics -

So is it known that it's Windows XP that causes this? That would explain why TAS'ers often encounter this. Not because of the TAS'ing itself, but because Hourglass only runs on Windows XP.

In any case, when a game is designed to be played with the other physics, wouldn't it be preferable to play it with its original physics? Obviously, it would be annoying to readjust ourselves to the other physics, so I'd only do it if necessary, like in the case of Brute of a Man. It seems that a mod that gives the game its intended physics back is preferable to a mod that tries to adapt it for our physics.
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: lemonxreaper on April 12, 2014, 06:48:11 AM
I don't think this is the case at all. or at-least anymore. if it was then it makes no sense really why we haven't encountered any impossible jumps in newer games that have been confirmed beaten.
I have said this before but I feel its likely that qoo used tool while playing these parts as his description said TAS.
There is no solid evidence to back up the alternate physics claim and the jumps that have been said to be impossible for us are also impossible for other communities, otherwise the triple diamond in danger 10 makers probably wouldn't have been squished.
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: Kinata on April 12, 2014, 05:36:28 PM
Quote from: lemonxreaper on April 12, 2014, 06:48:11 AM
I don't think this is the case at all. or at-least anymore. if it was then it makes no sense really why we haven't encountered any impossible jumps in newer games that have been confirmed beaten.
I have said this before but I feel its likely that qoo used tool while playing these parts as his description said TAS.
There is no solid evidence to back up the alternate physics claim and the jumps that have been said to be impossible for us are also impossible for other communities, otherwise the triple diamond in danger 10 makers probably wouldn't have been squished.

I still don't understand how it would make sense that qoo was livestreaming a TAS. Unless it was a pre-recorded TAS that he was showing off on stream, but then why was he constantly dying? Not to mention that it's still not clear why Hourglass causes these subtle changes in physics (though of course, we don't have clear reason why the physics would change in any circumstance).

The fact that this problem doesn't seem to come up anymore would also suggest that the cause might be older computers (OS Windows XP, which of course is also the OS of Hourglass users). Leehe claims to have beaten his jump, but no longer uses it. Perhaps he is aware that people with newer computers can't beat it?

In any case, do you believe Kamilia's claim that Brute of a Man has been beaten by two people? It would be helpful to at least talk to those two guys (or qoo), though I have never had any success in contacting Asians (qoo, the creator of Brute, and Kamilia have ignored my messages in the past). Is there someone in the community who is relatively easy to get into contact with?
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: lemonxreaper on April 12, 2014, 07:14:21 PM
I still don't understand how it would make sense that qoo was livestreaming a TAS. Unless it was a pre-recorded TAS that he was showing off on stream, but then why was he constantly dying? Not to mention that it's still not clear why Hourglass causes these subtle changes in physics (though of course, we don't have clear reason why the physics would change in any circumstance).

The fact that this problem doesn't seem to come up anymore would also suggest that the cause might be older computers (OS Windows XP, which of course is also the OS of Hourglass users). Leehe claims to have beaten his jump, but no longer uses it. Perhaps he is aware that people with newer computers can't beat it?

In any case, do you believe Kamilia's claim that Brute of a Man has been beaten by two people? It would be helpful to at least talk to those two guys (or qoo), though I have never had any success in contacting Asians (qoo, the creator of Brute, and Kamilia have ignored my messages in the past). Is there someone in the community who is relatively easy to get into contact with?
[/quote]

I think they don't find the topic at all interesting on top of the language barrier.
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: Kinata on April 12, 2014, 08:03:18 PM
Well, I wasn't talking to qoo and Kamilia about this, but yeah, language barrier is a problem. In any case, since it seems no one really cares, it's safe to say that anything that seems impossible for us (Brute, Butterfly Nova, SAT, etc.) is fair ground for modding.
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: Hectorpaddy on May 05, 2014, 02:03:01 AM
How sure are you that your tests are actually 100% correct?
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: infern0man1 on May 06, 2014, 11:00:20 AM
So one day I downloaded a fangame to a school computer. I manage to do a 1 frame mini-F, and I thought it was just the keyboard. I tried it again on a different computer in school, but couldn't do it. Then I realized that the 1 frame I did the first time was on a computer with XP. The one I couldn't do it on was with 7. There is a difference in physics.
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: Hectorpaddy on May 06, 2014, 02:05:25 PM
Quote from: infern0man1 on May 06, 2014, 11:00:20 AM
So one day I downloaded a fangame to a school computer. I manage to do a 1 frame mini-F, and I thought it was just the keyboard. I tried it again on a different computer in school, but couldn't do it. Then I realized that the 1 frame I did the first time was on a computer with XP. The one I couldn't do it on was with 7. There is a difference in physics.

Why would you try something like that in your school? lol
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: AndresSgarrido on May 06, 2014, 02:16:33 PM
Quote from: Hectorpaddy on May 06, 2014, 02:05:25 PM
Quote from: infern0man1 on May 06, 2014, 11:00:20 AM
So one day I downloaded a fangame to a school computer. I manage to do a 1 frame mini-F, and I thought it was just the keyboard. I tried it again on a different computer in school, but couldn't do it. Then I realized that the 1 frame I did the first time was on a computer with XP. The one I couldn't do it on was with 7. There is a difference in physics.

Why would you try something like that in your school? lol
Why not? :Kappa:
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: infern0man1 on May 06, 2014, 02:55:53 PM
We finish our EOCs and our proctors allow us to do shit on the comps here.
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: Kinata on May 06, 2014, 09:50:12 PM
Quote from: infern0man1 on May 06, 2014, 11:00:20 AM
So one day I downloaded a fangame to a school computer. I manage to do a 1 frame mini-F, and I thought it was just the keyboard. I tried it again on a different computer in school, but couldn't do it. Then I realized that the 1 frame I did the first time was on a computer with XP. The one I couldn't do it on was with 7. There is a difference in physics.

Yes, my conspiracy theory has been validated! :SwiftRage:

Hector I can show you how I do my tests in stream. My methods are pretty rigorous.

Inferno, I don't know how much access you have to those computers, but would it be possible to do some tests on them? With a little data, I can determine how those computers interpret the game code differently and create an "XP patch" for fangames that are broken in Win7 physics.
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: infern0man1 on May 06, 2014, 11:03:15 PM
If it involves installing some external program to the computer, I don't think it would be possible. I can't install/change programs without having to input a password through the 'administrator.'
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: Kinata on May 07, 2014, 03:05:58 AM
Well, that will make this trickier, but with a few tests I should still be able to figure out everything I need to. Here's the initial test game:

https://www.mediafire.com/download/cdz5mc5wx3zxec0/Test.exe

If you're wondering why I hacked Lemon's Brute mod, it's to make use of the V-align caption (and I'm too lazy to figure out how to do that myself).

I included a mini F jump in the select stage so you can test whether a given computer has the alternate physics. You should probably do the tests on one computer with regular physics (like your own) as a control, and when you get a chance try them out on a computer with alternate physics.

Test 0: You start in a room with 3 warps, each sending you to a different test. Before you do any of those tests, jump around and try to see if your V-align behaves unusually. Does doing a full jump lower your V-align by precisely .1? Is your V-align always between .1 and .5?

Now for the 3 main tests, all trying to determine jump height. Note that apples represent spikes whose heights are multiples of 5 pixels, as references. Each spike is 1 pixel below the previous. Determine the lowest spike you can jump under (for the given type of jump). Note that once you reach this spike, you will only be able to jump under it if you are on an adequately high V-align (remember, higher V-align = lower to the ground), so I'll also need to find out what the transitional V-align is to determine the exact jump height. However, the transitional V-align may be an unstable V-align, in which case don't worry about it for now. Just do tests at V-aligns of both ~.1 and ~.5, and if you only die at ~.1, do more tests to narrow the number down to the specific transition. If you survive at both ~.1 and ~.5, but die to the next spike even at ~.5, that means the transition is at an unstable V-align.

Test 1: This tests 1 frame jump heights. The leftmost spike is at a height of 40 pixels, the rightmost 30. In regular physics, the last you should be able to jump under is the one at 37 pixels, at any stable V-align. The transition is an unstable V-align.

Test 2: This tests jump cancels. The leftmost spike is at a height of 32 pixels, the rightmost 22. If you're able to pull off ideal jump cancels (I'm assuming you're not double canceling), then in regular physics, the last you should be able to jump under is 26 pixels. The transition is at .15. Below that, you will die even at 26.

Test 3: This tests full single jump height. The leftmost spike is at a height of 110 pixels, the rightmost 100. In regular physics, the last you should be able to jump under is the one at 107 pixels, at any stable V-align. The transition is an unstable V-align.

Well, that's that. Hopefully that didn't confuse you. :P
Title: Re: Alternate Physics?
Post by: infern0man1 on May 07, 2014, 11:37:12 AM
Alright. I got a computer with XP and tested it. Note, I didn't perform second test because I can't do jump cancels without a keybinder. I'll test on Vista later today, and same with 7.

Where you see the kid is where I can't pass.

(click to show/hide)


Oh, by the way, that isn't what I meant with the mini-F. I did it with the spike, not the block.