I Wanna Community
Fangames => Game Design => Topic started by: zaphod77 on January 11, 2016, 06:10:23 AM
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A random phase can keep people from falling asleep. so it's a good idea to include them. however, their difficulty can go all over the place, because, well, they are random. They tend to range from joke to moderately challenging (for the easy ones) and from hard to unfair for the toughest ones.
There is a better way.
Test the phase yourself with user specified seeds. if the seed is too easy, or too hard for you, try a new one. Once you have collected 50 or 100 seeds of decent difficulty, randomly select a seed to start the pattern off with.
You now have something that cannot be memorized, yet won't give the player a cheap shot, since cheap shots in random patterns are just not fun. (save the cheap shots for static and streaming patterns.) It plays just like a standard random phase, but doesn't ever screw the player over or give a free ride.
I Wanna Clear the Easy Miku is pretty reasonable with it's randomness (if you pay attention you can deal with it all pretty easily). But for the second one, the randomness puts the difficulty all OVER the place, and it suffers for it. While the random barrages that expand from Miku always seem fair, the volcano and the second negi wave are all over the place. And the small box section can get really rude at times.
Now if you find 50 seeds without discarding any for being too easy or too hard, then you have designed a good random phase, and probably don't need the workaround.
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So do you have any suggestions regarding the construction of this seeding system? I'm curious how you would go about it.
Aside from that, I think the assumption that RNG is necessary to keep a fight interesting is flawed. If you're having that problem, you might also try looking into positional targeting and aesthetic accents, both of which I've found to improve the boss experience a lot. If you have a bunch of medium-difficulty random apple sprays or whatever it's not going to be that much different from a medium-difficulty attack that's the same every time in terms of enjoyment.
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I had this exact same idea a while back. In theory it seems like it would work, but I think the hard part is putting it into practice. Ideally your system would be easy to plug into any project, and it would be straightforward to use with as much automated as possible. It's hard to gauge how hard it would be to make a system like this.
Easy or hard to make, I think the main issue would be getting people to actually use it. People who make fangames often skimp out on QA towards the end of a project (myself included), and this idea, even though it would be useful, is essentially just more work to do for a gain that's not immediately apparent. I mentioned the idea to Klazen a while ago and he said something along the lines of this, and for the most part I agree with him.
Although if you feel motivated to make a system like this, I don't want to discourage you from making something you want to make. And if it turns out to be *super* easy to use, then who knows, it might gain traction.
As for Kyir's comments, I agree it's definitely worth thinking about other ways to achieve a similar effect of less variance in difficulty, including the ones he mentioned. Though you shouldn't worry about making a *perfect* avoidance attack, because there are multiple schools of thought on what makes a good avoidance and you can't please everyone.
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So I gave this some more thought and also realized you could just use random_set_seed. The problem really comes down to the duplication of effort required just to make and test one boss attack. I would estimate about 5 minutes to thoroughly test each seed at different places in the stage, which means at 50 attacks (the minimum you suggested) the amount of time needed for that one attack would be about four hours. It could be significantly more if the pattern is elaborate.
That's not to discourage you from doing it personally, but I think you would be hard pressed to get other people to do it, especially since occasionally getting walled is already the expectation for many people when it comes to RNG-heavy bosses.
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I agree with the comments of this thread so far. Programmatically this is not hard to achieve, but logistically I think it would grind against people. It would be very hard to test individual attacks in a vacuum since the issues may occur when they link up meaning every trial would have to be a full run through. Though contradicting that, you might be able cut costs by decreasing the amount of seeds logarithmically between attacks as people will, generally, see each consecutive attack less than the previous one (provided they don't beat the boss in one attempt). They will always see the first attack, and they will see each attack either at least as many times, or more likely, less frequently.
Though I think another idea that might work would be to code prevention techniques for walling. Such as having the boss keep an internal log of its previous attack directions and making sure each new "random" attack is not close to it, etc. This seems like good practice to have generally but I've not seen it in a lot of avoidances.
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With the help of god mode, it's not too hard to just watch the phase play out, and check if there was anywhere something impossible to deal with even from far away.
So it really only takes about 10-15 minutes to do this test. You only really need to go to 100 if you are truly paranoid about someone memorizing them all.
It's true that trying to prevent impossible stuff inside the pattern itself is a good idea. and sometimes it's doable on purpose, and sometimes by accident. But sometimes it's not so easy to plan it out. Going to DotKid mode with small hitboxes is a copout. Making the pattern impossible proof from the start can also make it predictable, so doing at least one pattern this way is a good way to mess with the player's head, creating a pattern that looks like it could screw you over, but never actually does.
Even if this technique is not used, you should test any random pattern at least that much ANYWAY, to make sure it's not cheap.
I agree that well done static patterns can still be tricky and interesting, but once you figure out what to do, then it always becomes boring. The purpose of the random one is to make sure that someone can't just clear the game after watching someone else do it.
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Getting walled is almost exclusively based on positioning, so unless you're some kind of rabbit-human hybrid and your eyes can look at different things at once, you're still going to have to go through an attack multiple times if you're really committed to making sure everything is dodgable from everywhere.
I absolutely guarantee someone will complain about getting walled anyone even if you have made sure that everything is possible everywhere, so it all comes back to how much effort you're willing to put into things for a community that is never happy with anything.
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My main idea here was to avoid situations lie I wanna be the music extreme 10 minute mode, where you can and will get walled in through no fault of your own. Trial and error is a big part of fangames and is to be expected, but only having a chance to beat the pattern 1/10th of the time because it will trap you no matter what the rest of the time is not my idea of fun.
Another thing that bugs me is the A.I. Roulette from hell, where any attack can follow after any other, and some combinations are much harder to survive than others. One example is that boss with blobs. if it decided not to do the summon a chaser attack you've got it in the bag, but if i opens with that, sme of the other attacks are really hard to deal with with the chaser around. I finally ended up beating it the first time that attack was unused after i had learned the others.
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I understand your intent behind the thread, I'm just telling you that few game makers are going to invest the time required to properly execute your idea.
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Walls are nowhere near as common as you think, they're too rare to even be considered a problem. Often times you can watch back on an attempt that you thought was impossible and see a way through. These situations are important for you to improve.
Your idea would suggest that the difficulty would always be the same with no variance, which goes back to the original problem where it becomes dull. Sure, with the current system you can just luckbox your way out of it but I personally don't have a problem with that. Getting excited over good RNG only to screw it up later and "waste" it is important for teaching the brain to be less nervous and be able to deal with these factors.
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Nowhere is it written that you have to remove ALL variance.
If walling really is that rare, then see how many times in a row you can clear the 10 minute stage of i wanna be the music on extreme. :)
I also get the becoming complacent when the pattern is easy thing, but there's a difference between that and when the pattern being easy is the only thing enabling the clear in the first place. And in that case, complacency tends to not be an issue.
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If walling really is that rare, then see how many times in a row you can clear the 10 minute stage of i wanna be the music on extreme.
He meant in most decent hard avoidances. No one even cares about that fight anymore, it's considered impossible iirc.
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Take the wall like a man and press "R". If you can't accept that some attempts are straight impossible then don't play it. There are enough people who will keep playing because rng is fine.
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I got walled in more times then I can count on Genki's true final boss.
Usually i would be attacking the top head, and it would herd me right into the top laser beam out of the triplw. Or an arrow would show up during the big red beam and clip me just as it ended. or the double green flame would force me to drop down into an arrow or turn the stream pattern that JUT started into an actual wall. SOmetimes i would be blocked by arrows and fail to dodge the giant beam.
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I got walled in more times then I can count on Genki's true final boss.
This boss is hectic but extremely easy and there is only one way to truly be walled by it and that's either by doing it wrong which is player error or having extremely (and I mean extremely) bad RNG with the giant laser and arrow/mushroom attack. This is hardly a good enough example nor does it happen enough to be even warranted a change since the chance of it happening is zilch to none.
Even so in the case where the player is 'walled' because it's his first time playing the boss I think it presents more of an epic challenge rather than anything and even if there are those few forced deaths it's hardly challenging enough to bar a player from completing it.
If you actually truly think you're getting walled too often on this boss you're definitely not as skilled as you think you are and probably should suck it up and get better before complaining about 'walls'. Consider a new strategy rather than blaming RNG.
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I got hosed FIVE times by that combination,in two variations.
1) i fail to reach the bottom in time because i need to jump to dodge an arrow.
2) one clips my head JUST as the beam ends since the teeny gap blocks my shots unless i jump,and whne the bema is gone it's too late.
Zilch to none, huh?
But since you seem to know so much, what's wrong with my strategy.
FOr bottom i wait on either the floor or the lowest platform. i can dodge anything the game throws at me from there.
The middle is trivial. just wait patiently at the bottom until a clear path opens.
For the top, i see the following.
when the big bullet barrage comes, the safe spot for it is upper corner. there is time to escape when it's followed by the triple laser. while there are other safe spots, that's the one that lets me attack as well.
I drop down to the platform right below during the small bullet barrage. i do it a bit before i actually have to so try to avoid getting trapped by arrows or the triple beam. If i'm already there i jump and shoot.
the attack with the green things the at fly and fire a few shots i simply hop off to dodge the vertical bullet then go back up.
As long as there aren't arrows in the way, i can drop to the bottom to dodge the big red beam.
For the stream attack i wait at either the corner platform or the one under it and switch when they are all on screen to dodge easily.
The green flame will force me out at times, and it sometimes uses a lot of trouble. it is possible to dodge and stay on the upper platform, but it requires a lot of precision.
What ends up getting me
1)arrows show up right after i go into the top corner to dodge a pattern, and sometimes one of them is JUST below my gun and clips me.
2) something else, usually an arrow, forces me to jump and a stream starts DURING the jump, causing a much nastier combo of shots. usually an emergency drop to the ground will get me away, but sometimes there's an arrow in the way...
3) that blasted triple beam starts JUST after i jump to dodge something else, and because i've already comitted to the jump, i can't drop back down in time to dodge it.
4) stupid arrow gets in my way trying to dodge the triple beam.
Is there a 100% safe strategy for taking out the top head quickly?
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I got hosed FIVE times by that combination,in two variations.
1) i fail to reach the bottom in time because i need to jump to dodge an arrow.
2) one clips my head JUST as the beam ends since the teeny gap blocks my shots unless i jump,and whne the bema is gone it's too late.
Zilch to none, huh?
Five times by two different combinations. Only #2 is truly impossible and yes it can happen. Reaching the bottom in time is most likely a player's fault and there are an infinite amount of combinations in which could happen that could slow you down. I'm almost certain that #1 happened more often for you than #2. I still stand by my statement of 'zilch to none'.
For the top, i see the following.
when the big bullet barrage comes, the safe spot for it is upper corner. there is time to escape when it's followed by the triple laser. while there are other safe spots, that's the one that lets me attack as well.
I drop down to the platform right below during the small bullet barrage. i do it a bit before i actually have to so try to avoid getting trapped by arrows or the triple beam. If i'm already there i jump and shoot.
the attack with the green things the at fly and fire a few shots i simply hop off to dodge the vertical bullet then go back up.
As long as there aren't arrows in the way, i can drop to the bottom to dodge the big red beam.
For the stream attack i wait at either the corner platform or the one under it and switch when they are all on screen to dodge easily.
The green flame will force me out at times, and it sometimes uses a lot of trouble. it is possible to dodge and stay on the upper platform, but it requires a lot of precision.
Since the Middle/Bottom are arbitrary / easy I'm not going to bother mentioning them since they truly are.
Big Bullet Attack: There is a safe spot in the top left that you already know about but it's risky to stand there. There are several others where you can drop down and stand without getting hit.
Mini Bullet Attack: Easier than the big bullet but the top left corner isn't a safe spot anymore (barely) and it makes more sense to play safe and drop down.
Chex Mix Barrage: Everything is shootable in this and is easy enough to carve your own path. It's completely RNG and even with that you can negate most of it that is in the way.
Triple Laser: Simple Pattern. If you stand in the top left corner during the Big Bullet Attack and this attack follows, you're most likely screwed. This was the risk you take by doing that.
Green Laugh Thing: Easy, the active hit box for it is so short you can just move slightly and move back without much issue.
Targeted Bullet Attack: lol
Green Arm Wiggle Dudes: lol^2; They are hard to die to.
What ends up getting me
1)arrows show up right after i go into the top corner to dodge a pattern, and sometimes one of them is JUST below my gun and clips me.
2) something else, usually an arrow, forces me to jump and a stream starts DURING the jump, causing a much nastier combo of shots. usually an emergency drop to the ground will get me away, but sometimes there's an arrow in the way...
3) that blasted triple beam starts JUST after i jump to dodge something else, and because i've already comitted to the jump, i can't drop back down in time to dodge it.
4) stupid arrow gets in my way trying to dodge the triple beam.
1) Top left corner is risky. It's a RISK that a player chooses to dodge one attack rather than going somewhere else for the added benefit of ending the boss fight sooner. Either don't go there or do better at shooting the arrows. This is a fault in strategy.
2)"Stream" I assume means the targeted bullet attack. Choosing the correct path to go is a challenge that the player has to decide. Either they riskily fall down to the bottom to try and get out of the way or they move upwards. Depends on the layout of the RNG more than anything but should hardly be an issue due to the slow speed of the targeted bullet attack.
3) React faster. There is more than enough time to react to dodge it. Again, punishes poor position choice if you decide to dodge the Big Bullet attack at the top left or choose poor positioning for the Chex Mix attack.
4) see #3
Is there a 100% safe strategy for taking out the top head quickly?
No. The boss is designed to kill you and there are iffy situations. You can make it easier by killing the bottom one first, resulting in less bullets and stuff on screen but there is no sure-fire way of killing the boss. Everything you had mentioned with your issues with it has been a positioning/player issue.
I won't argue the fact that the giant laser attack can have impossible RNG and as I said before the chances of it happening are zilch to none. If you're using the GENKI boss as an example of where seeded rng is needed or is the 'right way' to do things then you're grasping at straws and are completely wrong.
Could it have been better designed to prevent that impossible case? Yeah, probably.
Should it be changed? Hardly, it's fine as it is and rarely happens and isn't important enough nor should the create care.
To begin with I am on the side of Denferok and Pandy on this. Walls are hardly common and it's usually a player skill issue than anything else. The amount of effort you want to put into something such as seeded RNG will go unnoticed and will be a waste in time in the end. If you want this 'non-wall' RNG when making a game you're probably designing the attack wrong.
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Five times by two different combinations. Only #2 is truly impossible and yes it can happen. Reaching the bottom in time is most likely a player's fault and there are an infinite amount of combinations in which could happen that could slow you down. I'm almost certain that #1 happened more often for you than #2. I still stand by my statement of 'zilch to none'.
twice from number 2, and once from number three.
Big Bullet Attack: There is a safe spot in the top left that you already know about but it's risky to stand there. There are several others where you can drop down and stand without getting hit.
i know there are others. but i can't shoot the top head from them.
Mini Bullet Attack: Easier than the big bullet but the top left corner isn't a safe spot anymore (barely) and it makes more sense to play safe and drop down.
that attack itself is no problem. i drop to the second platform and jump and shoot at it.
Chex Mix Barrage: Everything is shootable in this and is easy enough to carve your own path. It's completely RNG and even with that you can negate most of it that is in the way.
Not everything is shootable. an arrow can be high or low enough that you can't shoot it, but it can still clip you. It's not an issue on the bottom because you can rapidly flee for the top if needed. but going from top to bottom is slower to start...
Triple Laser: Simple Pattern. If you stand in the top left corner during the Big Bullet Attack and this attack follows, you're most likely screwed. This was the risk you take by doing that.
You are only screwed if an arrow also gets in the way. I dodged the triple beam after the big bullet spread from the top corner many times.
But if i hold back because arrows MIGHT show up i'll never get a hit.
Green Laugh Thing: Easy, the active hit box for it is so short you can just move slightly and move back without much issue.
I realized the hitbox was ever so slightly smaller then it looked, but are you telling me it's only a few pixels wide?!? That I could have tap dodged it? it sure looks like it's a block width, when i'm on a one block platform
1) Top left corner is risky. It's a RISK that a player chooses to dodge one attack rather than going somewhere else for the added benefit of ending the boss fight sooner. Either don't go there or do better at shooting the arrows. This is a fault in strategy.
There are only two ways to hit the top head that I know of.
1) stand in the top corner, which you say is risky.
2) stand on a platform below that and jump and fire. But that's not safe either. you jump, the triple beeam stars just as you press jump, and a couple of arrows are preventing you from landing back on the platform. t this point you will be hit by either the top or middle beam regardless.
2)"Stream" I assume means the targeted bullet attack. Choosing the correct path to go is a challenge that the player has to decide. Either they riskily fall down to the bottom to try and get out of the way or they move upwards. Depends on the layout of the RNG more than anything but should hardly be an issue due to the slow speed of the targeted bullet attack.
well i can't move upwards if i'm at the top. to properly herd it i have to stand still until the bullets are all on the screen. but when arrows show that's not always an option. the option of the rapid drop to the bottom is sometimes blocked by arrows...
3) React faster. There is more than enough time to react to dodge it. Again, punishes poor position choice if you decide to dodge the Big Bullet attack at the top left or choose poor positioning for the Chex Mix attack.
4) see #3
The issue is the chex mix attack can be COMBINED with any other attack. it's trivial to deal with on it's own, but many combinations can force you out of position, causing a "positioning error"
...there is no sure-fire way of killing the boss. Everything you had mentioned with your issues with it has been a positioning/player issue.
If the boss cannot be mastered to the point of being killed on every attempt, then by definition it has unfair RNG.
I won't argue the fact that the giant laser attack can have impossible RNG and as I said before the chances of it happening are zilch to none.
You are attacking the top head. You are doing this because the bottom head is already beaten. you are doing this by jumping from the second platform, because that's the safer method. Arrows show, so naturally you are jumping and shooting them as well and hoping to shoot a mushroom. You see the danger show up the instant you pressed the jump. you need to drop down fast. but there's an arrow passing through the gap you need to use. What's the right thing to do? how is that always escapeable?
Can you outline a strategy that guarantees a win that doesn't require psychic RNG predicting powers?
I'm fully aware that a good 50-70% of the deaths were my fault. i'd mess up a jump or react too slowly to the triple beam, or be suprized when a second one shows up when i hop back to the top after dodging the first beam (this is totally dodgeable, but you have to be alert).
Hindsight is 20/20. as long as rng isn't involved, stuff that's pretty much unsurviveable the first time is to be expected. But it really ticks me off when the rng causes deaths that are only avoidable in retrospect.
Oddly enough, i felt that every single death on the chase section was either pilot error or new territory.
Oh yeah. I wanna be the dark blue. That games final boss, as included in i wanna get rekt. The one i was only able to beat when it decided it didn't want to summon a chaser. that rapid charge attack (that you have to dodge with about 7 well timed jumps, one for each charge) is pretty much impossible to deal with when the chaser forces you to jump at the wrong time and you get skewered at the apex of the jump you were forced into by the fast chaser. I don't consider that good boss design.
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You can easily kill the chaser quickly enough in Dark Blue, and then get to a position where dodging the other attacks is most comfortable for you (probably exactly opposite of the boss). Pretty much guaranteed win everytime once you learn how to dodge his attacks.
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tl;dr Get better at fangames
twice from number 2, and once from number three.
How many times overall? Kind of important I would say. If you have had it happen 2 times out of 200 it personally still falls in the category of zilch to none. That's also 3, not 5. I know you obviously won't have perfect statistic recording because nobody does that unless they're a tool.
i know there are others. but i can't shoot the top head from them.
Then you can't shoot the top head from them. A risk. I already mentioned this.
Not everything is shootable. an arrow can be high or low enough that you can't shoot it, but it can still clip you. It's not an issue on the bottom because you can rapidly flee for the top if needed. but going from top to bottom is slower to start...
Everything is shootable that matters. Grasping at straws and if it's so low that it can only clip you obviously don't try and shoot it and either jump over it or drop for a short reminisce minute. Yes, Top is harder than the bottom. Hardly a problem. Use a brain to decide what's worth shooting and what isn't. It's part of the difficulty of the attack and the difficulty of it matters depending on where you are when it starts and what is before it. Play risky and you might get 'walled' but that's your fault, not the games.
You are only screwed if an arrow also gets in the way. I dodged the triple beam after the big bullet spread from the top corner many times.
Big Bullet Attack, top left corner. Risky. You're blaming your risky play style on the game. Stop bullshitting with me.
But if i hold back because arrows MIGHT show up i'll never get a hit.
Ding Ding Ding
I realized the hitbox was ever so slightly smaller then it looked, but are you telling me it's only a few pixels wide?!? That I could have tap dodged it? it sure looks like it's a block width, when i'm on a one block platform
Yes. That's what I'm telling you. It's the easiest attack in the boss.
There are only two ways to hit the top head that I know of.
1) stand in the top corner, which you say is risky.
2) stand on a platform below that and jump and fire. But that's not safe either. you jump, the triple beeam stars just as you press jump, and a couple of arrows are preventing you from landing back on the platform. t this point you will be hit by either the top or middle beam regardless.
Yes it's risky standing on the top left corner.
You're specifying a specific example of where you die in this case. Attack X occurs. You know that Attack Z is a possibility, do you take the risk in going for damage when you know it might get dicy? Stop bullshitting me. Use your brain and accept that there are consequences of how you do an attack.
well i can't move upwards if i'm at the top. to properly herd it i have to stand still until the bullets are all on the screen. but when arrows show that's not always an option. the option of the rapid drop to the bottom is sometimes blocked by arrows...
You don't have to stand still to 'herd it'. As ong as you don't jump like a maniac you're fine and even if you do it's still dodgeable. This is a skill thing. Again, you're using the arrows as an excuse to dying. go back to what I had just said, stop bulshitting me.
The issue is the chex mix attack can be COMBINED with any other attack. it's trivial to deal with on it's own, but many combinations can force you out of position, causing a "positioning error"
You can always be in a safe place because you can shoot everything in it. If you're in a place that you can't shoot stuff you're obviously not in a safe place. Another bullshit excuse. It can't force you out of position unless your position is risky.
If the boss cannot be mastered to the point of being killed on every attempt, then by definition it has unfair RNG.
un·fair
ˌənˈfer/
adjective
not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
Taking out from the defintiion you want an equal and justful way of surefire doing a boss. Unequal RNG exists solely because it is RNG. Unjust RNG again, exists solely because it is RNG. You're looking for an answer that doesn't exists and the only answer is not to use RNG at all, and nobody with a brain is ever going to do that. As much as you willfully try to take out the unfair aspect the more it becomes bland, boring, unimportant, unnoticed, and pointless. Exclaiming that this is the 'right way' of doing RNG is a horrible misinterpretation for the reason RNG exists.
You are attacking the top head. You are doing this because the bottom head is already beaten. you are doing this by jumping from the second platform, because that's the safer method. Arrows show, so naturally you are jumping and shooting them as well and hoping to shoot a mushroom. You see the danger show up the instant you pressed the jump. you need to drop down fast. but there's an arrow passing through the gap you need to use. What's the right thing to do? how is that always escapeable?
'...You see the danger show up the instant you pressed the jump.' Obviously let go of jump, this isn't a text based adventure game where you immediately react but your instinct obviously is to let go or gauge the time it takes for the attack to appear and the time it will take to dodge whatever might come from the bottom.
'...but there's an arrow passing through the gap you need to use.' You already fucked up. Again, stop bullshitting me. You made a poor decision and your blaming RNG.
'...What's the right thing to do? how is that always escapeable?'Get good.
Can you outline a strategy that guarantees a win that doesn't require psychic RNG predicting powers?
There exists no strategy to guarentee a win 100% on this boss. You also don't need this 'psychic' powers you're mentioning. What a fucking joke.
I'm fully aware that a good 50-70% of the deaths were my fault. i'd mess up a jump or react too slowly to the triple beam, or be suprized when a second one shows up when i hop back to the top after dodging the first beam (this is totally dodgeable, but you have to be alert).
Try 99%. That's a more realistic made up statistic. If you want to be even more of a joke the winning play is not to even play the game, that way I could say it's 100% your fault for playing an obviously unfair boss. In the end if you'd rather argue a point as to why a boss needs to be changed rather than getting better to complete it I believe you're playing the wrong games.
Hindsight is 20/20. as long as rng isn't involved, stuff that's pretty much unsurviveable the first time is to be expected.
You'd pretty much be hopeless if you thought that you people should do bosses with no issue the first time around so at least that's something.
But it really ticks me off when the rng causes deaths that are only avoidable in retrospect.
Hardly exists and only happens with poor design.
Oddly enough, i felt that every single death on the chase section was either pilot error or new territory.
Chase section isn't tough nor really important. The issue if any exists with not knowing what the platform looks like ahead of time but that falls between the lines of not knowing what kind of difficulty at what point a boss contains ahead of time.
Oh yeah. I wanna be the dark blue. That games final boss, as included in i wanna get rekt. The one i was only able to beat when it decided it didn't want to summon a chaser. that rapid charge attack (that you have to dodge with about 7 well timed jumps, one for each charge) is pretty much impossible to deal with when the chaser forces you to jump at the wrong time and you get skewered at the apex of the jump you were forced into by the fast chaser. I don't consider that good boss design.
I don't know enough about this nor do I remember it. I didn't enjoy playing Dark Blue anyway so I let it slip from my mind.
Regardless you're still complaining about something that can be solved by getting better at fangames in general. The point of this post is chatter about philosophy of what's fair and justice in random game design elements by using impossible outcomes as an excuse as to why something is bad or injustice while these impossible outcomes that I have seen listed are either completely subjective, cases of extremity, or in the one case that I have seen mentioned, actually true.
You shouldn't be making a post with a title exclaiming that this is the correct way to do something when you don't know anything about making a game or are a good enough player to analyze game elements like this.
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You can easily kill the chaser quickly enough in Dark Blue, and then get to a position where dodging the other attacks is most comfortable for you (probably exactly opposite of the boss). Pretty much guaranteed win everytime once you learn how to dodge his attacks.
Okay, i backed up my save, went back and tried again. seems i gave up a little too soon trying to kill the chaser. seems it requires SIX shots in that version, and a fair invulnerability period after the shots. I did notice the flashing but i could have sworn last time i tried killing one i got killed by the next attack before it died.
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use gaussian distribution, that's a nice probability-based technique to "focus" RNG around a point.
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100% strategy is not the same as 100% pattern.
You can't go tell me there's no way to be sure of being able to attack the top head, and then tell me that my deaths are all my fault.
If there is a strategy that avoids all bad positions, that's a 100% strategy.
If there is no strategy to avoid all bad positions, then how is is my fault if I end up in one?
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100% strategy is not the same as 100% pattern.
There is an infinite amount of solutions than can occur for any single instance of RNG. You can roughly follow a strategy but whether or not that single strategy will work every time is not up to you, but up to the game. It's your job to adapt, not the game's job.
You can't go tell me there's no way to be sure of being able to attack the top head, and then tell me that my deaths are all my fault.
Simply put, yes I can.
If there is a strategy that avoids all bad positions, that's a 100% strategy.
If there is no strategy to avoid all bad positions, then how is is my fault if I end up in one?
A strategy to avoid all bad positions doesn't exists for most bosses. If you wanted a boss like this you should play noise spike.
The room is hardly 'this position is a bad position' and 'this position isn't a bad position'. Some are hotter than others (aka the top left corner). It's your job to decide whether or not position A,B,C,D,E,F,G is better than position H,I,J,K,L. Any number of these could be 'bad positions' but obviously they aren't all 'equal' and to adapt you need to take generally, the lower risky positions. Its not the game's fault if you choose wrong, it's yours.
If you want to go ahead and blame the game for you're death than that's all fine by me. However, if you're going to start calling something unfair or unjust for reason's that occur because of a your own decision making and propose that it is in need of change without supplementing the required playtime or being at a skill level that the game requires you to be at to perform optimally then you're the issue, not the RNG.
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I see what you are saying, but i suspect that i haven't explained my position well enough..
I will give a simplified and very contrived example.
There are 5 switches. ONE of them is required to open the door. the other 4 will cause spikes to rise from the floor and kill you. these spikes are screenwide, and avoiding them is impossible once triggered.
lets' say 90% of the time, it's switch B that opens the door, but 5 percent of the time, i's A, 2.5 percent, it's C, 1.25 it's D, and 1.25 percent it's E.
Now clearly it's my fault if i die when i pick E, since it's very unlikely not to kill me. and i will know thaat after a coupel of attempts. But if I pick B, and still die, is that somehow my fault?
Going back to the boss. the bottommost central platform is a good position to attack the bottom head. I can deal with anything that comes from there regardless of RNG. If arrows show up and cause trouble i can drop to the bottom and shoot them. i can dodge green flying stuff, i can dodge the laugh flame, the small bullets and the triple beam are dodged for free, and for the big spread and the aimed stream i can drop to the floor to survive. while the position isn't safe, there's nothing that approaches that platform I can't deal with, even if the top head is still there. After i have to leave it, it's safe to return to it after the next attack starts.
If there's a place that i can attack the head from, and can always react to whatever may come, even if said reaction is to go to a different spot, which may or may not allow attacking the head, then it's a good position, even though it's not safe.
A bad position is one where the game can throw something impossible for you to deal with regardless of reflexes if you are there. If there's always some sort of warning sign that will tell you when to move out of there, it's not a bad position. It may be challenging, but it might be the only option.
I suspect we have different understandings of what counts as a bad position. I've accepted that the upper corner is bad, because you can be hosed by arrows there. Everything else can be dealt with 100% of the time, including triple beam after big bullet spread.
So to put it simply. is there a position that you can attack the top head from, that there is ALWAYS a warning of when you need to abort attacking the head and return to a good position on the bottom? If there's always an escape possible, and a way to know the escape is needed, there's a working strategy.
If no such spot exists, then i maintain that you can lose and not have it be your fault.
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I see what you are saying, but i suspect that i haven't explained my position well enough..
I will give a simplified and very contrived example.
There are 5 switches. ONE of them is required to open the door. the other 4 will cause spikes to rise from the floor and kill you. these spikes are screenwide, and avoiding them is impossible once triggered.
lets' say 90% of the time, it's switch B that opens the door, but 5 percent of the time, i's A, 2.5 percent, it's C, 1.25 it's D, and 1.25 percent it's E.
Now clearly it's my fault if i die when i pick E, since it's very unlikely not to kill me. and i will know thaat after a coupel of attempts. But if I pick B, and still die, is that somehow my fault?
You're trying to use a simplified example of something that is hardly simple. You're trying to put a near infinite range of possible outcomes into five options with clearly set specific chances of death.
This lets alone the fact that the chances provided are devoid of player skill which you're obviously trying to supplement for chances which is hardly how it works.
For the sake of an example that actually is usable, we'll use GENKI. I can't run it because it stopped working on my computer. However, as an example I can guarantee you that with an infinite amount of time and the one impossible case removed (giant lazer after chex mix), you could spend most likely forever on the boss provided you can perfectly press your inputs, even without the knowledge of what part of RNG comes next. AKA doing genki final boss with TAS.
The only strategy you'll ever be satisfied with is the one where you don't play the game.
This is where I stop.
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I might as well say that if the argument is drawn out even more from here on out I will take action.
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Warning noted...
Guess i'm just overly sensitive because of all the genuinely impossible RNG i've ran into while playing different types of games before, and the truly rotten luck i've gotten.
On a serious note. what ones should actually be played to get good? I'm not saying the easiest. but the ones tha twill actually drill into you how to play.
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easy miku 2 insanest rng in the world fam
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I don't really see the problem of having a long discussion as long as it's not acrimonious. Isn't that the point of having forums?
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The problem is that it doesn't exactly relate to this thread.
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easy miku 2 insanest rng in the world fam
Already finally beat that.
Having attacks that only throw something truly hard 25% of the time isn't fun.
TO get better i need to deal with ones that throw hard stuff at you nearly 100% of the time.
And one attack can very definitely wall you in. the descending big red cherry has random spam which is difficult about 1/3rd of the time, but also shoots an unaimed circle, which can sometimes fill in ALL the gaps. Backing off to the right far enough to get through regardless opens you up to getting stabbed with a negi in the back.
Managed to figure out that the exploding rainbow cherries are actually dependent on your position, and not random at all by watching the screen after death. explains why they seemed fair. Probably one of the best easy patterns i've seen. Always doable but trickier then it looks. strangely enough the negi shower looks like it could screw someone over with a dense cluster, but it's NEVER killed me.
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The problem is that it doesn't exactly relate to this thread.
And I was referring to the discussion on GENKI's final boss, not to what this thread was originally about, which I haven't barred and won't bar other members from discussing.
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On a serious note. what ones should actually be played to get good? I'm not saying the easiest. but the ones tha twill actually drill into you how to play.
https://delicious-fruit.com/ratings/game_details.php?id=11725
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Anyone who thinks that easy miku2 had insane RNG hasn't played this game.
In fact it appears to have an RNG from the deepest pits of heck. I can't count the number of time's i've died a few milliseconds before the projectiles changed direction. Sure seems to happen way more often then chance would suggest.
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If you want a less ridiculously hard recommendation, I'd look into playing Spinal Fluid, although that does have some weird pattern stuff at the beginning.
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Not Another Magic Tower Game is pretty fun so far, although it does get pretty damn hard. If you play it, do beware that softlocking is easy if you aren't careful.
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If you want a less ridiculously hard recommendation, I'd look into playing Spinal Fluid, although that does have some weird pattern stuff at the beginning.
if i can even get to the boss. i'm completely stuck at save number three. i can pass the first jump maybe one in 50. and i'm expected to do it twice in a row?
I can see no trick to it, just what looks like frame perfect timing.
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If you want a less ridiculously hard recommendation, I'd look into playing Spinal Fluid, although that does have some weird pattern stuff at the beginning.
if i can even get to the boss. i'm completely stuck at save number three. i can pass the first jump maybe one in 50. and i'm expected to do it twice in a row?
I can see no trick to it, just what looks like frame perfect timing.
The trick to f jumps is getting as close to the edge as you can, doing a gate jump, then turning around. It's not as precise as it seems, although the timing can be tough to learn.
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Yeah, while F-jumps can be difficult for newer players, they really aren't as frame perfect as they may seem. Now, if you want to see what a frame perfect jump actually looks like:
(httpss://i.gyazo.com/b546649f98a7710e9e7207ead42b57b4.gif)
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I passed the first one by save jumping. then got past the second one. now i have that 4 points inward to snake through. Even knowing what i'm supposed to do (use the space above to align myself to the wall, jump in midair to slow down, then weave through it. i did it ONCE and stupidly blundered into the spike afterwards. trying the top doesn't do any better once i get over the wall, so i've made up my mind to try the low road. at least the save is right there and the stuff after doesn't seem so bad.
And yes i was using perfect alignment on the earlier screen too.
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There's a descending big cherry which spews out random cherries in all directions. near the bottom of the drop it also shoots out a circle. once in a while the random spam fills in ALL the gaps in the circle and you get smashed.
I didn't really classify anything else as impossible. just that the difficulty range of the patters was all over the place, ranging from "stand still" to "omg, gotta act fast... GAME OVER PRESS R TO TRY AGAIN". Easy Miku 1 was different, and let you box yourself in through your own mistakes quite easily.
Note that my advice doesn't always men to make it easier. i's possible to cleverly ensure that something nasty but possible is thrown at you, bu you won't know when it is.
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use gaussian distribution, that's a nice probability-based technique to "focus" RNG around a point.
:atkLove:
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They don't call him T "hot for math" J for nothing.
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damn Gauss, it's not enough to make my life a misery in my maths degree, now he's going to persecute me with delicious fruit as well.